Wild Rule Breaking Season 2 Finale with Dr Billy Garvey

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[00:00:26] but all the information is correct. It's definitely well worth it. But this at the end of the season, we'd love to do this. He's a great man. Dr. Billy Garvey. He is a developmental pediatrician. He works in clinic with a lot of kids and families that come to him for a variety of reasons. Now, the reason this episode, these episodes start up was Billy came to us and we was like, look,

[00:01:40] you know, I got a waiting list that's two years long. So many people in the series where he's like, okay, well, there is actually, you know, even though our guests are always speaking from the heart, which I think is the beautiful thing about the show. A lot of the time that's lining up with stuff that is backed up by the science and by the people that are studying this clinically. So the other thing I want to give a shout out to is Billy's awesome podcast that he does with his mate Nick called Pop Culture Parenting

[00:03:00] where they'll take a film, they'll take a film and

[00:04:03] This is the All Roads lead to the Billy episode. Oh, it's amazing.

[00:04:04] I was worried it was like the boring teacher one

[00:04:07] where the teacher comes in and is like,

[00:04:08] and this is the best of a matter.

[00:04:09] Yeah, we won't put this online knowing we'll listen to it,

[00:04:11] but it's nice for us to do it.

[00:04:13] We'll put this in the show notes, you're really into it.

[00:04:16] No, mate, but I love this.

[00:04:17] And so the way this works is you have hand picked your,

[00:04:21] I mean, you probably listened to these

[00:04:23] more intently than anyone.

[00:04:24] You've hand selected some of just the few of the moments you use, the way you react to things, you know, just your attitude. And especially from a young age, they just take all that in. This was made aware to me by a teacher who she would ask herself every day, am I worth copying for these kids? I'm about to look after that. We're quite young kids. And yeah, it was a real, you know, there's, I love the, the rigor of that.

[00:05:43] I mean, obviously they've got their own thing going on, but to a, to a certain,

[00:05:46] a large extent, they are emulating you.

[00:06:42] you know, how am I, what am I actually showing them? And sometimes I think in all of us in truth,

[00:06:44] there's a gap between what we say, how we should be,

[00:06:49] and how we actually are.

[00:06:51] It carries with it so much more accountability,

[00:06:53] acting a certain way,

[00:06:55] because the thing is sitting on your kid's bed

[00:06:57] at the end of the day, or while they're having afternoon tea,

[00:07:00] and giving them a five minute chat,

[00:07:02] or realistically a 30 second chat,

[00:07:04] about how to behave nicely with your brother or sister, educators do is not teach kids, it's that they guide kids, you know, and they role model for kids. Be good people near our kids. Yeah. And they've been for a reason and they build relationships. And that's all my work with school is based on that is that they have this really trusting relationship to provide great role modeling and guidance to kids for hours and hours every

[00:08:20] day.

[00:08:21] And I think, you know, just as a dad listening to this. Yeah, yeah, I'll try and leave it at once, but we have a podcast that talks about this. Please do, I love it. Yeah, so pop culture parenting is one source of like how do we share this? Cause it is such a long wait to see people in clinic and most people don't need to be seen in clinic, but I think it is important that the evidence is given to us in a way that's helpful.

[00:09:40] And that's what we try and do on pop culture parenting.

[00:09:42] And we talk about all the different elements of this

[00:09:44] and we're guided by their listeners.

[00:09:46] But what we know is that the primary purpose them, not because you sit on the end of the bed and go, you mean the world to me. You know, they feel it more than they hear it from you. And that's his whole point is we're emulating people. It probably gives us a great pivot to the next clip that you've chosen, because that is quite possibly without guessing too hard, but that is Joe going, I'm emulating my, my father.

[00:11:00] And second one you've chosen is Eddie Betts.

[00:11:02] And Eddie's talking about a thing that I think a lot of guys, certainly a lot of guys I've

[00:11:06] talked to through the course of doing this podcast. that I needed when I was growing up. Okay, so Eddie is an interesting example here because he is, he's making it up for the first time, which I think is common for a lot of us. Yeah, and the beautiful thing is he talks about how like he's been a parent and looked after,

[00:12:20] culturally, a lot of the kids in his family

[00:12:22] when he was a younger kid,

[00:12:23] he's doing that now with a lot of kids that aren't,

[00:12:25] he's biological kids.

[00:12:26] He's got this beautiful kind of global sense of like, I want to be present and I want to spoil my kids and all those beautiful things, but it's not being conscious of it. This is me. This is what I do. Yeah. 100% what I do. Yeah, same.

[00:13:40] But it's just working on it and going like, is, am I watching the kid in front of me and

[00:13:43] what their specific needs are and the feedback they're giving me and constantly evolving

[00:13:47] it based on that. She's really struggling with that.

[00:15:00] I've noticed that she's,

[00:15:01] Billy's not playing basketball anymore

[00:15:03] and he's not talking about those mates

[00:15:05] that he was really passionate about.

[00:15:07] We need to shift and realize Yeah, go get a drink everyone. We're going to play the whole thing. Do you think you can learn how to take good risks, self-regulate? I think so. I think you're going to make mistakes. I took risks and I made mistakes. But so for my kids, I think by taking risks, hopefully,

[00:16:22] I think they learn on the job.

[00:16:23] Yeah, they learn on the job.

[00:16:25] Because I guess what I'm asking is that it's that on others and it could be in a negative way, then you got to have, you got to think about that, man. Think about how they would feel. Billy, risk. It's a big one. We know through failing and risk taking, that's how we learn until we want our kids to take risk, but we're also all of the time terrified about kids taking risks.

[00:17:40] Yeah.

[00:17:41] So when do you think kids learn risk taking?

[00:17:43] Like what age?

[00:17:44] Your kids have been through that's a hazard. Risk taking is you're getting higher and higher and you're aware that as you go higher up the tree, there's more of a chance that you'll fall and hurt yourself, but you're conscious of that. And it kind of speaks to how much we need to help kids

[00:19:00] navigate risk based on what their profile is like.

[00:19:02] So the really cautious kid needs gentle, supportive movement

[00:20:04] I think you're right. It's like it's just speaking to a low level of like, be careful. But we can do more than that and watch actually what do they need to get better at whatever

[00:20:07] they're trying with. And it's the same as the teenager navigating social, socially awkward

[00:20:12] situations.

[00:20:13] Where does the concept of because one thing I talk about with my kids a lot and I know

[00:20:16] a lot of people do is and it's a really Aussie thing is like having a go like, like we try

[00:20:21] and celebrate the having a go in us. But it challenges a lot of your, you know, with my six year old, like learning how to ride without your training wheels on. It's a fascinating for anyone that's gone through that stage of ghost, for that stage of, I think there's a reason it's in so many movies when you're growing up because it is

[00:21:41] the moment where it's, it's, you know, as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible. And I think a lot of people are as safe as possible. How can I avoid all risk? The problem is then when the kid becomes independent, seeks that out, has what we talk about reward sensitivity,

[00:23:02] teenagers are just seeking it out everywhere.

[00:23:05] They've had no opportunity to navigate risk.

[00:23:07] And that's the first time they get it Racks like, yeah, you do, you can actually teach it. You teach it really early and you teach it in the way that you, like we said at the start, you watch and go, cool, my daughter's a bit hesitant. I need to keep making sure she's making steps towards progress, but do it gently and be really responding to how she's going. You know, my son is Gun Ho. I need to give him instructions that aren't be careful, that are like, be careful because

[00:24:21] this part of the hill is bumpy, you know, not just vaguely be careful, but go be cautious

[00:24:26] of that. This bike's really fast. I don't want you we don't, kids who, you know, you take the training wheels off and they fall over, you don't have a go at them and say, what are you doing? I'm stupid. You go, cool. You weren't ready for the training wheels to come off. It really is like an amazing metaphor for everything. You get that heartwarming feeling of watching your child go from something that seemed completely daunting and completely impossible. And to watch them then stand on the other side

[00:25:41] of their own fear is like, that's all of our dreams.

[00:25:45] Yeah. Which is probably what we're all aiming for.

[00:25:47] That's what we're all aiming for.

[00:25:48] As they get to be a bit tougher than that. Well, and I think they need, you know, you're deciding together, you're

[00:27:03] sort of calibrating like, where do we put the risk?

[00:28:04] move they've learned his aggression. A lot of kids will avoid and they'll never take a risk and they can't be in school environments, they can't trust anyone because of what's

[00:28:08] happened. So a lot of the time what he actually needed was people to watch him and go, hey,

[00:28:14] you're seeing hostility everywhere. There isn't as much risk everywhere, but not all

[00:28:18] these people are out to get you. Trust people, trust.

[00:28:22] And he needs his parents, his primary, I said to my kids, didn't make them, but I said, well, they turned 14. Okay, you have to go and get a job. Why was that important to you? Work ethic. Because life, as we talked about earlier, is tough. And you've got to work hard to survive.

[00:29:41] And you've got to be resilient.

[00:29:42] And you've got to come up with things that don't go your way.

[00:29:45] And you've got to focus on moving forward through that. A lot of the time, this is what matters at school. A lot of the kids that we see in clinic have had stunted social development. Sometimes it's trauma, sometimes it might be something else that's going on, but they didn't have the opportunity to develop social skills or what we call pro-social skills. And one of the key ones that we know kids will benefit from

[00:31:01] if they can learn it early on is empathy.

[00:31:03] And I don't know how you felt guiding kids in empathy,

[00:31:07] but once again, Someone else is different to me and has different feelings to me. And it's a really important part of empathy. It actually starts as being before their one year of age. Now you might be like, no, it doesn't babies. But actually, I'm sure you've seen this,

[00:32:20] it's contagious crying.

[00:32:21] You know what I mean?

[00:32:22] They will cry, a baby cries,

[00:32:24] they hear a baby crying, they cry.

[00:32:25] Because they're picking like, here's a toy. Here's an ice cream that always makes me happy. And the kids like hurt their knee or something. And then it's only when they start getting into kind of late preschool, early primary school age, that they can start really thinking about, I wonder what it's like to be that other person. And it's a really important difference.

[00:33:41] And that's why we shouldn't ask that of toddlers

[00:33:43] that are in conflict.

[00:33:44] Cause they can't on a deep level,

[00:33:46] understand that their needs are different. is different to yours or what do you think Billy would need? And when they're kind of like thinking about what they might need, but go, I think Billy is different to you. Like I think Billy really likes when people do this or actually you like hugs and I can see you're trying to give Billy a hug, but Billy doesn't like hugs and it makes him a bit worse. So how do you think Billy's telling us that?

[00:35:01] And just language like that and then saying,

[00:35:02] yeah, see he's good when you stand there

[00:35:04] and say, I hope you're okay.

[00:35:05] You can see he's giving you feedback that that's helpful.

[00:35:08] And that's a couple of things like that that we might talk about later about, you know, little tricks that you can do to try and reinforce relationships. And we know kind of empathy is a big pro-social thing that will help relationships develop

[00:36:20] depth and relations do have depth.

[00:36:22] You know, you will start really early on, but when we. And it's interesting, once I spend a long time listening to her, you know, couple of hours, her just getting it all off her chest sometimes, then I can give little bits of advice or sort of even just steer her to see what I think she's really close to seeing anyway, but you know, a tree in the way,

[00:37:41] just move the tree out of the way,

[00:37:42] and she sort of gets there.

[00:37:43] And just one layer at a time,

[00:37:45] because she thinks, oh my God, and you're focusing on stuff that you don't have control over. Let's focus on things you control. I was like, I don't need a fucking life coach. Go away, dickhead. Sound bites weren't working. No, and I was pushing it further away. Beautiful. What's Sam talking about? Yeah, so there's a couple of parenting courses

[00:39:02] that are evidence-based,

[00:39:03] and I'm trained in one of them called Tuning In,

[00:39:06] and what he's actually important we don't go there because kids often don't

[00:40:24] need their problem solved for them.

[00:40:25] They need someone just to acknowledge that they're having a tough time and realize that

[00:40:28] and validate it. don't understand, you actually need to connect with someone to be able to actually give them any advice. You know, they come into clinic and I go, so the hesitation I have, I hear the story, I want to cut them off and give them the answer because I got heaps of them. And actually, sometimes they just want me to hear their story. It's a really important thing. And it's probably, is it true that if, I mean, people just aren't ready to receive advice

[00:41:40] until they've got it all out?

[00:41:43] Definitely.

[00:41:44] And that goes to the bit on it.

[00:41:45] This isn't an emotional coaching, but I think that I remember this and do it. And you know, he should have some autonomy in whether the strategies are working or not, but also we should be watching and seeing. Yeah, he's been telling me that friendship's really struggling. I need to check in with him and make sure that he knows that I'm here and can help him. But yeah, it's a really important part of what we're trying to give them is problem solving abilities.

[00:43:01] And as they get older,

[00:43:03] like in most things in development,

[00:43:04] they're moving towards independence.

[00:43:06] You wanna move from,

[00:43:07] we might've talked about it. And saying that, and then that's, you know, another beautiful thing is self disclosure, which is a bit of a fine balance of like, I experienced that too. I have times where it's tough for me and that can help them see that you're not a perfect person either you struggle with this stuff too. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Another one that jumped out at you was Tim mentioned that it's in this area,

[00:44:23] which is the idea in terms of self share in terms of sharing, what did you call it?

[00:44:28] Just.

[00:45:22] cause them more fear and insecurity than giving them a reason. Agreed. It's a delicate one too.

[00:45:24] You probably have to make a case by case call on you because I think it probably boils down

[00:45:28] to something like if I can explain why I'm upset, that's great. That's a good, that's

[00:45:33] probably healthy for them to see someone be okay with being upset.

[00:45:37] And recover.

[00:45:38] We're not trying to model never be upset.

[00:45:40] No, that's right.

[00:45:41] We're trying to say you'll get upset and I'm not okay now, but I know how to get okay.

[00:45:47] Yeah. in their life to go, look, you know, hey, when I was at school, I had a really weird friendship too. Or, you know, hey, I've, I got in trouble shoplifting. And this is what or whatever it is that you empathizing with your kid about. So kind of two different things. No, but I think there is an overlap. And I, you know, I, I think there is because there, there is a, you know, there's an empty opportunity in our kids saying that we also

[00:47:01] struggle to the challenge is like, I, I I need them to lift and see that. And you know, sometimes especially kids with a lot of empathy and sensitivity, if they've got a parent who's struggling a lot, it's too much for them and it overwhelms them and they kind of find themselves in distress. And we see, I meet kids in clinic every single day that are struggling with this stuff.

[00:48:20] They've got a parent who's got mental know, 24 hour news cycles or like, you know, stuff that you haven't seen on social media. Like you've got to be really careful. Also just them constantly

[00:49:41] hearing about that stuff can be too much of an and abuse. And like- Well, I think in both points that there's a need for honesty.

[00:51:01] Do you know what I mean?

[00:51:02] A need for honesty of like this stuff happened,

[00:51:05] however you feel comfortable talking about your own experience

[00:51:07] and how you navigate it is really helpful ways for them to deal with that in a process. It's a good idea because yes, I didn't know about this scary thing. Now I do know about it. Yeah. To go to go find the certainty, find the thing that is isn't big and unpredictable and scary. Yeah. That makes so much sense. Yeah, there's certainty in me. So there's a whole world is falling apart. Well, I'm always going to be here. I'll always be with you. Like this is a way that you can get help.

[00:52:23] You can come to me, you can come to other people. that, I mean, is it ever too late to start trying to build it? No, no way. I saw a kid in clinic who's last week has been booted out of school. He's got no one really in his life. And he's living in part because of that conversation I had with my father. Where you felt the pull but didn't feel the support.

[00:55:01] The support, yeah think it's a good thing to get carried away and I have certainly found myself in under Not not trying to overlay anything other than that not trying to

[00:56:26] Build upon anything other than I know who you are. comment that I still remember. It's amazing the power of that optimism where you're still trying to figure it out. So whatever ages you are as a kid, the power of that having someone nearby believe in you can ignite something in you. Yeah. And we were, I mean, you're a hundred percent right. It doesn't have to be like

[00:57:40] he talks about how the only person, but there's a lower level of optimism.

[00:57:44] I mean, you're back. It's even more amazing when it comes from.

[00:57:47] Yeah. good in what I wouldn't deem a crisis because it's enough to push them over. It's so interesting to know that that's what we're doing is that's what we're giving our kids that the optimism. And you can give, you can help your kids develop secure self-esteem. Like a lot of people think, are you just born with self-esteem? We often aim for high self-esteem, we shouldn't be.

[00:59:00] There's a lot of people running around that have a high, very vulnerable self-esteem.

[00:59:05] And sometimes they'll reiterate it through bullying or withdraws and internalises, go back to the training wheel stage, put them in really safe, easy to navigate relationships and help them learn how to navigate conflict and succeed and step them through it. If their self-esteem is challenged because of their emotional regulation, you know, help them with emotional regulation components. If it's because they don't see identity in the community, help them with that specific

[01:00:23] thing.

[01:00:24] Like your self-esteem is vulnerable because you don't see a sense of purpose in relationships supported on the hill. Yes. Five steps back to go, 50 steps forward is such a good takeaway for me personally. I hope everyone's enjoying my own thoughts out loud. No, awesome. Thank you, Bill. Okay. This is our last one, Christian O'Connell. I reckon this is possibly my favourite moment of this season.

[01:01:40] I think it would be for a few people.

[01:01:42] This was Christian talking about his mate who was his gold standard example of daddy. You can talk about connection to break it down. It's like make them feel safe, make them feel loved. That's it, that's what you need to do as much as you can. And when you're not doing it, just go, oh yeah, it's hard, it's hard. It's a busy day and just you don't need to tell yourself up but just remind yourself, am I making them feel safe? Am I making them feel loved?

[01:03:01] That's it.

[01:03:01] That little boy will always, whatever happens,

[01:03:04] he's always gonna know, oh, we can't do it all the time, but he can't be there for every lunchtime, but he has to be there for every lunchtime at the moment. And he has to be there until the kid says, I don't need you here anymore. And it's this beautiful realization that we need to go in and we go in when we need to, and we just sit with them. He's physically just sitting with that kid.

[01:04:21] That's all he's doing.

[01:04:22] And it's beautiful.

[01:04:23] There's a whole another element of bullying that, and now it's made me cry twice in one year, that story, is it's the courage to go, I can't do anything, I actually really can't do anything else in this moment that's guaranteed except be there for you. And it feels like so little, but it's probably the, but it is the biggest

[01:05:42] thing that you can do.

[01:05:43] Like he says that it'll stay with that kid for the rest of his life, that his dad sat and I feel something from my heart and I'm gonna follow it. Yeah, it's beautiful. 100% agree and I hope I can be a parent like that. Mate, well thank you. You're certainly doing an amazing job helping people be parents like that, mate. What a great trip. What a bloody trip. Thank you Billy. Thanks, Sam. Thank you for coming mate. Cheers.

[01:07:08] So awesome. It keeps sticking with me, I guess I keep needing to be reminded of it. Just that our kids are obviously extremely unique, one of a kind, never before seen, never before to be repeated human beings and meeting them where they are and as who they are, not who we were or not what we think the general 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or 15 year old

[01:08:23] should be, the more we can tailor make is record them in the first half, get them out towards the end of the second, and I reckon we'll try and do