How Ben Quilty Dads - Drawing lessons from life and a life drawing lesson!

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Just before we begin the show, we'd like to officially thank our one and only sponsor who's been with us through

[00:00:06] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's their thick and thin. We don't really have, you know, there's not too much turmoil here on the podcast

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_04]: We do greatly appreciate herds' support, herds, rent a car, let's go get out there if you need a car business pleasure

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Vacation just a weekend adventure hurts are your people

[00:00:22] [SPEAKER_04]: If you use the code word haim at checkout, you'll get a whole bunch of quality service that you just don't get from the other

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Render contact companies and that and you don't actually even need to use that the code word

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_04]: That's just what you get anyway from herds

[00:00:35] [SPEAKER_04]: So don't even bother using the code word that I mean honestly there is no I made that one up

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_04]: But if you do go to herds.com.au

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_04]: For slash hodhd

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_04]: You can get 25% off the base day rate for herds rentals, terms of conditions applied to that offer

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_04]: But I'll tell you one condition, the condition is you have a fun

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Enjoying all those savings plus there are other ones

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_04]: That's how guys at herds they're just they're not code word dependant

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_04]: They're just all day every day

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Great people at herds

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's get into the shot

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Love's to be a dad but he knows there's more to learn about being a dad

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_05]: So he made me show where he talks to all the dad so big of my dad

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_05]: How other dad's dad?

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_06]: How other dad's dad's dad?

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_04]: All right, good day everyone today's guest what a ripper is Ben Quilty now

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_04]: I'd say very high chance people be aware of being called he is one of them

[00:01:39] [SPEAKER_04]: These are not my words of all agree with them one of Australia's most famous leaving artists

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_04]: But Ben

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Look as well as being that he's won the archipel prize

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_04]: He's won many many prizes for his art

[00:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: On top of that Ben if you like enough to have seen him talk or read anything that he's

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_04]: He's going to do it on you'll know he's an extremely passionately thoughtful person about the world and about the human condition

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And the reason I wanted to get Ben, I'd be really honest here

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: And if Ben's listening back to this too this is I don't think I taught him this face to face but

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_04]: The reason I wanted to have him as a guest on how other dad's dad was

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I just happened to be at a dinner with him and you know it's a good word of warning for anyone that

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_04]: He's ever at dinner with me. I was just listening to Ben talk and talk about being a parent

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I was just like man what a wise and lovely bloke

[00:02:32] [SPEAKER_04]: And so I was like no you've done it now Ben, I'm going to

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm going to hand you until to your credit come on and thankfully it was

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Required a little handy here

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_04]: I was bang up for it and actually invited Tim and I out to his studio a couple of hours outside Sydney where he

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_04]: What he paints where he does these work and we're always up for a road trip

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So we're like, yeah, what a great what a great adventure to go out and actually actually do the interview

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Add in Ben's studio. We cover a lot of stuff here

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_04]: We're touching a bunch of things that I found fascinating because as you're about to hear he's got

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Teenage children and one child coming out of teenage years and we do have a little bit of a shared history in the sense that back in the day and you know

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_04]: We did a radio show from Afghanistan for the Aussie troops in Afghanistan in 2007 and Ben went as the official

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_04]: War artist to Afghanistan in

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_04]: 2011. I'm sure people have seen his his pre-powerful work that came out of that so there's a lot of

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Places this conversation goes but mostly I am just super grateful to get the chance to sit down and find out how Ben bought he

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Dad

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Ben thank you for having us thanks for coming and visiting me so cool to be here in the studio

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very unassuming too like it's funny to go past these like a blind store

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Like a bathroom center and then like boom he's your studio just tucked away. Yeah, it's good to be hidden because you've got to be on your own

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You've gotta be working with your cleat head or not cleat depending on what you're trying to do on the day

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's better if no one knows you there. Yeah, this is this is beautiful. Thank you so much

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_04]: We like to start each ever so with your dad stats. So just how many kids have you got?

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You're your two-time father. I've got two. Yes, yeah

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And ages ages and Joey's just turned 18 and

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Olivia is 15 and a bit. I mean, I actually actually want to touch I want to touch on Joe first because you mentioned straight away

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_04]: When I texted you about doing this and and you were like yeah, I think I'm actually fresh into something

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Actually, I wanted to start by rewinding a little bit

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I watched recently your

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_04]: 730 report it takes two or the two of us. It's like little thing days to have them 730 report

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_04]: That was in 2019

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Which shockingly is five years ago? I cannot believe 2019's five years ago, but you're a little boys 13 and he's like this week kid

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_04]: That you have a beautiful relationship and he's talking about like you know what you've you've given to him and what you what you mean

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_04]: And then suddenly not having met Joe before today. Like it's like a time capsule

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Where I look at this little 13 year old that I watched him last night

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Then you're saying he's just left home like how is that for you?

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Look about a year 18 months ago. I I did some recent reading into being more happy

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're episode to me

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe you're you're fretting about the upcoming leaving of your son and I thought what a load of crap come on

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_00]: He loves me is not going far is not going anywhere well about a month ago

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He drove away from here from this from my studio with his car packed with his stuff to work on a farming

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Cuma and I bought my eyes out and it's the first time

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Amy I felt like a proper grown-up actually, which is embarrassing to say to have as a 50 year old

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I felt the real the weight of I was gonna say weight of responsibility maybe the responsibility

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I hadn't responded to I last 18 years of fathering him

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But I took that feeling of my son enough or no now

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I just thought I've really now grown up. This is a real moment in my life

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Like what's in the tears first of all let me ask that like what were the tears what was coming through well look I

[00:06:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't like a good cry, but I went home after that and sat down on the lounge with Carly and leave me my daughter

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And I played song after song that was his favorites and I

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: But made them ball as well. So there's something I think that's very joyous about that emotion of feeling so much for someone

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That you've known since the very second he came into the planner

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: It's very profound or in a sense it's the essence of being human growing up actually

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: a next a new stage in my life a fabulous new stage in his life

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_00]: um

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: All of the sentimentality of memory of remembering this tiny little boy who's always adored me and his mom and he's been such a

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_00]: delightful kid to seem drive off and then to think about that drive down the highway heading towards

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Quimera and a sheep farm and

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_00]: profoundly unknown thing it's gonna be the most exciting drive he's ever had so in my moment of

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Dispration he's just thinking the world opening up before him and I know he's also sentimental

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So he's also feeling the same similar things but it was very very profoundly powerfully

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Beautiful and sad or totally and I mean that's the

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_04]: The duality of parent and child isn't it you have a moment like that he's off

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_04]: He's launching and you know he's leaving and you're

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: We're standing there waving maybe that's the thing where you used to you know when you're in your twenties and thirties

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_04]: You're used to waving goodbye to people as you go off on your adventure and now it's having to set someone off on theirs

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so when that therapist said I think you worried about your child leaving

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought rubbish I've been very excited about that moment for him

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I think he's a great person. He's fulfilled with compassion. He's all the things I'd hoped he would be

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel like he's walking into the world very young mind you he was 17 when he left

[00:08:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But living in a little country town like we do that is nothing there for him. He had to leave

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's the the the world opening up for him and maybe for me one little chunk of light

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: appearing as you become 50 and then start to really

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Go through the thoughts of your own mortality. I think I think that that naturally starts happening around 40 and by 50 and Joey walking out the door

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You know that song Joe

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I played that over and over again and thought about my death

[00:08:53] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I didn't

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm exaggerating

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I played Joe and I urge anyone to think about what I've said and play that song and don't tear up

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_04]: We say it all the time like it goes

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I go so fast where does it go? But it is these little milestones that we always find myself jump in between saying it

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_04]: But thinking that once you've said it you're cool with it. You've acknowledged it like I've said it goes really fast

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_04]: So I'm okay with it, but then when it really does go fast

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It still catches you by surprise

[00:09:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that's the hard and any one of these little milestones

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Catches all of us by surprise and maybe we've fallen to the trap of thinking that if we really can't just

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Of it like we really paying attention it will stop going so fast and the brutal reality

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't it doesn't no it keeps going. It's the impermanent and those those like every you'd know

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Parent people tell you that's a they look back they're reminiscing about their own

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: parenting

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: To the three is a beautiful age or the terrible twos or the terrible threes or I mean

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Every period of me fathering that young man's been there hasn't been a down moment

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been the biggest privilege in my life. That's really beautiful man. I love that

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_04]: In that seventh to report you guys what he mentioned your family motto was above and beyond

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: And as a 13 year old he's interpretation of that

[00:10:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm paraphrasing here, but he says something along the lines of

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_04]: You know just always try your best and have a go no matter what how how did that go as a family motto?

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Just be interested to know because you know you had this interview together coming into his teens and now he's coming out of them

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: How did that hold through his tail qualifying all of that I think I remember him also saying I smelled bad on national television

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Did that do so you're you're he at his voice within the realms of sensible third in your old

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: knowledge yeah, I've always thought that if you do you in every certain situation you do your best and that

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That's not doing your best like trying to hit 100 every time playing cricket

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's all well of course it is but when you get out playing cricket that you do that

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_00]: The best way you can as well. Yeah, so it's not about success in a sense it's about living I guess

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: In a fulfilled way dealing with failure. I think one of the key things I wanted to teach my children

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because it's so important to do that people don't get back up often and they let things

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Whole grudges and let things drag on and and and and

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Appically change their life when really you should just step up and move through it

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_04]: What was some of the ways that you help teach your kids to be okay with fire?

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Well Joey and I use cricket as analogy particularly with Joe because he's fanatic

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He loves it is obsessed and he's good at it, but he did not

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Take lightly getting out ever and we had to work hard on that and you remember what you said

[00:11:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean because I mean as a cricket fan myself I'll immediately love the analogy, but it

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_04]: It applies like a

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: For me that I mean in a moment like that for a child or a young teenager

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about keeping communication going and going and going and going even that feels really unnatural for you

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Pushing that communication keeping communication going for me with him and living as well

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been the key I think to you know whether we're successful or not to making them well rounded

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And in those moments that he doesn't want to talk and I don't didn't feel like talking if he doesn't want to talk

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: But as the adult you have to take that forward and try and make an effort to keep the communication going and I guess just point out

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Really for me the simplest way was to point out the excitement of that little boy who got him out and that that's such a great moment when you got someone out

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: How excited did you feel and would you want to take that away from that child?

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And very that's a great take on that and always encouraging those that that into

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: team, you know

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Now he plays first grade

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: for a great team down here in the open to batting and you know as lots of the boys on the other team

[00:12:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's grown up knowing that community of people and so feeling someone else's failure helps you

[00:13:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Deal with your own I think really yeah, that's a great what a great dad move but also because

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_04]: When you really think about it like you know I've got little kids six and nine at the moment and my it's especially something like a sport or whatever

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you know, it's about me about them and so that they're performance like quite it's kind of the ego is taking over like it's quite inward looking

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_04]: But then to them say to him well

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: There's another side to this equation and saying that Hamish I played ping pong with him some time ago and he beat me

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I threw the ping pong bat and went straight through the fucking window

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not always leading by besties ever

[00:13:38] [SPEAKER_04]: And say I was laughing

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So actually been there's a little boy who just beat you and he's had a wonderful day and he's gonna have an ice cream

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought you're gonna say as a poor little boy. That's to fix that

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_04]: You know the poor little boys dad who's gonna be late. I'm from work now because he has to fix a window

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, you know what it's like I mean we were I was I was playing up there

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I was being very dramatic about losing to him and losing to him has been

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Again, I think one of those things especially for parenting a son

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Knowing as a father that there's gonna be a moment when he's stronger than you

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is a really important

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Moment right and I grew up in a community where physical violence was pretty rife

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of boys got into physical fights with their dads around 15 16

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And obviously that was never gonna happen in my circumstance

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But I can I can see in hindsight how that would in a more dysfunctional family unit come up

[00:14:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And that physical strength is something it's so crucial. I think for boys to learn

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: The privilege of having it um how to control it particularly when anger and you know and sport is such

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Such a a lovely and sophisticated way. I think of learning

[00:14:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Boys helping boys learn how to manage those positively express strength. Yeah, yeah

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_04]: We do I just had the the pot as well with the three the three kind of cornerstone three cornerstones does live room for many other corners

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But the three pillars of

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_04]: What you're philosophy you're doubting philosophy might take what is it for you?

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Well saying that they're probably shifted over the years and you've been in a parent fade in years

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_04]: What did they start at and then what did what have they got to well I

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_00]: To they started and and and and I'm sure this is the same with lots of the good men you've interviewed

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_00]: to begin with I just wanted to be a support person for Kylie. Yeah

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: It was

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Prif found for me to watch that happen and see the power that she held

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And to think how the fuck have men had any position of power in our community when you can do that Kylie

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_00]: it was so mind-blowing

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And exhausting for both of us that night me just watching

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_00]: In the morning I actually got climbed she was sitting in the bed in her chair looking at this beautiful little child

[00:16:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Just casually lay on the bed and then fill a sleeve and the doctor walked in while I was asleep

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_00]: In her bed

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Her rig

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_00]: She still reminds me of that but for the first period. I just knew I was the support person

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I did my very I worked as hard as I could I I got up for every feed which in hindsight

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think was insane

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You need to try and

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Have some of it and you're wits about you in the day and we were both wrecked because I was determined to get up make tea

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: um

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But then moving forward I think the second cornerstone for me would be that when your children at school

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I found I was so astonished at parents who blamed the teachers for every floor in that child

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And it was so clearly about the parent and not the teacher and I think

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's important for people and I mean I've I've all for a long time thought and have lots of family members who have been in a teaching profession

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: People that I respect friends

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The teachers are probably the most important job in a healthy community

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And teachers are there to teach new skills not to build a better person. They come from us

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: and it comes

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: 50 50 from a mother and a father that I agree I think it's like that's a home job

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and it's as I said it surprised me how many parents didn't

[00:17:28] [SPEAKER_00]: share that

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: view yeah

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Massive-lown fair the teachers who have not won child to care for and nurture but a school room of 30 children

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_00]: To teach the syllabus is a big enough ask to then expect them to

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_00]: to implement

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Social skills and and compassion and

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Wrong and right I mean it's just crazy and parents need to take in my opinion

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Take far more responsibility for that rounded child the social aspect of yeah

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_04]: their development how did you do that on the home front where there?

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it's it's probably the answer that is everything but were there certain

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_04]: things that you were very keen to kind of encourage and enforce to help that social development

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Well Joe's looking forward to people coming up on the street team after this goes to a

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, mission questioning him about his personality

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Sending then your listeners can make their own mind up about him because it's

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_04]: What I mean I wasn't expecting to get to meet him today, but he's back for a visit from the farm

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And I mean I can attest the fact this is

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_04]: I reckon other parents would know what I mean when I say this because before I add a kid this would sound weird

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_04]: But when I meet someone like your boy you know I have this

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It's not it's like a fandom where I'm like because I have a young boy. Oh, I got an I knew I'm like oh

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_04]: How do I get a Joe? Like how do I you know how obviously I want my I want something to be sunny

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_04]: I want him to be him, but I'm like how do you get how do I ensure that he

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Grow as I've to be you know, he's an amazing young kid your boy well look that saying that though

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_00]: There is a big part of it that is personality. I think you totally can't help you can help guide

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_04]: But I can understand having having had a great chat with him

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_04]: He's these are in awesome

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a big part of that about Joe is that that's the person he was and I remember when he was a tiny baby knowing that

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Personality hasn't changed much. It's developed. Yeah, so so children can be different you just help them along the way

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean and we talk about this the favorite on the podcast that

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That idea that year of course it's somewhere in the 50% nature nurture region but

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_04]: It's there and it's how do you activate it because we all have seen and possibly have felt for people listening

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Jail were examples of things that were there, but they were squashed or yeah or discouraged or you know

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_04]: That's the that's the horrible side of it, but then on the other side it sometimes doesn't take much to

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Encourage no that those traits in our kids that we want to say well with Joey and my daughter or

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: We all say probably to this analogy say that I'm disgusting, but I still kiss Joey

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: We haven't stopped kissing each other goodbye and hello and since Joe's left home

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He now kisses me on the lips again, which hasn't happened for years

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't see why anyone would not want that from their little boy. No, I and I remember my own dad who I

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Tealey love and made you know amazing father around 11 12 no more did not kiss me again

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought that did you ever talk to him about that? Yeah, yeah, I mean, she'll have hammered him about it

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: around 25 28 around the end of my you know a haze of marijuana days

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I started kissing him again and making him do it needs to I'm disgusting disgusting and now he expects me to give him a kiss

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow, so you had an easy 16 year old

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_04]: No contact period. Yeah, and it came back

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What is not a way because I was always I mean, I think being in the arts not accepting this status quo blind me

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I watch so many boys grow up into to manhood without any affection from any adult males and that's

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Crot I just insane. I want to that and it's this sort of latent home of failure in a sense

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_00]: That it's a fear of that there must be something sexual in it. Well, I don't find I kiss my daughter

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't find her sexually attractive and neither do I find my son and I'm gonna treat them

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I have made a huge effort to treat them exactly the same because there are little bodies that you've

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Growing up with like it's the most

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_00]: primal thing and I think that would be one of the key things for Joe. I think for both of us through our relationship

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: That's nurtured in him a great sense of

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_00]: himself without the the baggage of what I dealt with growing up where I grew up of

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You know

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_00]: The threatening nature of a really ugly form of masculinity and that doesn't exist with Joe or his friends and I like Joe

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_00]: He's I've never discussed this with him, but I see him kiss his mates and I don't know whether that's a more natural thing between young men now

[00:22:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, good question. I mean two two points here like a

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_04]: How great is it when you kids have good mates and how much do you love those other kids like just

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_04]: In an in order amount when you see good qualities in your kidmates and be I would say there is a positive trend

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Thankfully like in young guys to be way more open about loving

[00:22:36] [SPEAKER_04]: You mates and

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I hope that that I've that I'm not just seeing that because that's how I am with my friends, but I do think that's

[00:22:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully a bit more of it. Yeah good kids also find bad friends at times and that and Joe has a long away

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_00]: My children have you had it? How did you well? It's a real knife edge. It's an interesting dilemma of face because on the one hand

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You want to help your child understand why they are like that and for me to point out behavior that that I don't accept or that worries me

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Have always gently pointed that out to the to my children and then help them understand why I assume

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean there's a lot of trust in this you don't want your children then telling that child could be very hurtful if it's delivered in the wrong way

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: No, no in an unsophisticated way from a child but I've been there. Yes, yeah, but to help them understand why

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Then then they become bigger conceptual thinker about how that relationship can work or shouldn't work yeah and most of the time

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: They've found ways to make it work and often it's about boundaries and and if everyone did that

[00:23:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Then a good classroom would lift those children who are in a bit of trouble rather than

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Expelling them from that social group. Yeah, so we talked about three things

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Changing over time. Where would you say you're at now if you had your three

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Your three words that summed up? You were the final one would be dad reminding me

[00:24:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Dad and mum at different times told me they weren't perfect people and I I remember the time thing that somehow

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I profound but I was two I was about 14 15 a lot of drugs which my mum and dad didn't know about

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Through the haze of that I thought there's something very profound in them giving me that

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: And as I grew older I realized how crucial that was for them to tell me

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Because at the time I was

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And for John leaving know that I'm not I'm an I'm a jigsuit her I should point out my mistakes to them

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's important for them to see so many of my mates used to parent girls and guys

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Parent would never show a chink in which in their personality to their child, which is just insane

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I think like it obviously sets up a

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Secular standard yeah, well I find one of the easiest ways to connect with the kids is to talk to them about when I've been scared of stuff

[00:25:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Or laugh about

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Mucking something up

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Sort of lucky that in my job often game things wrong

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Is like good for business like it's easy

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_04]: You can make it you can make a joke out of it and yeah, and it's actually usually much fun here

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_04]: If something doesn't go well then if it went perfectly

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think as a general rule for anyone like that

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_04]: They're your best stories like they're and I

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Talking to your kids about your your feelings or you you miss you miss happens is critical

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a dad told me at the time when they're very worried about me

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've found ways to tell my kids to actually verbalize it. You know

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not perfect. I make lots of mistakes and now I could point you to people that you know that you could talk to about

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That I'm far from perfect and to give them that information

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Particularly in their teens when things can be really rocky around you nine ten

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Both of them had you know it's a tough period for kids for girls and boys

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: To feed them that information and actually verbalize that I think was my hope was

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Effective for them when your parents gave that

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Bit of information to you do remember how it made you feel late was it later?

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_04]: You sort of said didn't quite you didn't realize how profound it was at the time

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you remember at the time did it help build a connection or did it help shift the lens a little bit of how you saw them?

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I think it's more it shifted the lens of how I saw myself. Yeah, great

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that I stopped judging myself against

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Anyone I mean you naturally I think

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Can without knowing it you are judging yourself against your parents

[00:26:37] [SPEAKER_00]: From when you're under two when you stop just gazing into your

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Mother's eyes I say so you in that sense, so you're you know you're dealing with drugs and things that you're trying to keep secret

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_04]: And so there's am I hearing this there's almost like a shame involved because you're like well

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm I'm fucking this up because mom and dad

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_04]: They can't know about this because I'm doing the wrong thing but

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It helps you be people forgiving to you look back back to the kids that that aren't good friends and you worry about that

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think those times when I was probably the child that wasn't a good friend that parents were worried about so it's sort of have tried to come at it look at it through many different

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_00]: angles

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And anyway for that child to and I went to very violent school. I was plugged in in seven by a psychotic

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Cities rather really my seven was the last year of corporal punishment in New South Wales and they they criminalized it the year after

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So the brothers kept wearing their straps on their belt but couldn't actually physically use them

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But up until you seven I was a people please. I loved you know, I wanted to please and I was very academic

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Good student school captain and then in year seven it all came

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It was torn in half by the a couple of two men

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And so I so for kids who are

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Messing around for me. It's been an easy thing to help my children understand those kids because I think I

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Probably around you nine would have been one of those kids. Yeah, yeah

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I've been able to protect my children from that no things don't happen anymore like that

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_04]: and

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Living back to encouraging the sides of our kids that are there and in them

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_04]: with with you obviously

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_04]: creativity and drawing and art were part of your makeup but

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_04]: How did that come about when you were younger how did that get encouraged in your like do you remember the any specific moments where as a kid

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_04]: You were like like think I like this thing, but there were people around you that allowed it to flourish

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well any six. I got into a selective school and mum and dad gave me the choice of going there or

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Catholic boy school and Northwest and Sydney and there was no art department so when I look back on it

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Already determined to do I wanted to do that I liked it and mum and dad obviously encouraged that so I chose the school with the art room

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Which was a very violent school

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but I don't regret it. That's fantastic of

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00]: At the same time having your

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Respect in authority completely destroyed

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't have gone to our school. I'm sure unless I'd had the

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: This GP that the madness to say no to mum and dad. I'm going to ask all those so against it

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Terrified for me so so everything worked really well in the end really really well

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just didn't stop. I just wanted to keep doing it and I thought why at the end of year 12

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought I'm never wearing a tie again. I'm never wearing a suit and I by then really

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: actively and self-destructively had

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Huge disrespect for any authority and I thought I'm going to art school and I kept going at the end of art school

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Had was obviously completely jobless and became a builders labourer for four years and went back to uni

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you know things worked out

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was always something I thought will be a hobby

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether it's a job or not it doesn't didn't matter. It's something I wanted to do. I love doing it

[00:30:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I till all my young kid friends and John Livy's friends and them

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_00]: If you just do what you'd let find what you love and do it and rest will fall into place

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Were you was there someone in your life who was like

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Was it sort of driven by you or do you remember your parents? You know being I dad was actively against her

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And I said in my interview for Sydney and he Sydney college out said Brett Whiteley's my favorite artist and at that point in the height of

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Conceptual art movement, you know, Whiteley was not a renowned figuring that movement or at that school

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And he died the year I started uni of a heroin overdose. No, remember dad looking at me going

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the path

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_00]: But mum boys made her and then she studied philosophy and she's a lifeline counts of a long time

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So real humanist and studied art when I's in younger years of high school

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And if I had to if I had a sick day, I'd she dragged me along thinking this all turned Ben off

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Pretending to be sick but I'd go and sit in these beautiful rooms at hornspee take way up north of Sydney

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: With me beautiful music playing all these people concentrating on this esoteric extraordinarily

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You know playing with beauty as a third-a-n-year-old

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: It's obvious why I was already dreaming of not going back to being flogged

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I can see that I can see one has an advantage for sure

[00:31:38] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, specifically talking about art drawing creativity

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_04]: There's little exercise that I want to do at the end if I could get you to

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Help me I'll do my very best because I did read somewhere where you you were like people should not stop

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_00]: drawing now but shouldn't stop art no, that's true and look one of the things I was going to suggest for you

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Is especially for your kids and I remember taking John leave you out to dinner when they're tiny and

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's set at a table and there'd be a table next to you with two small kids and the two kids would be on

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: iPads and their parents facing them each other diagonally

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're talking that two kids are sitting in their own world

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know that there is another way and that's to give them a $2 shop drawing ball

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And draw and all of you draw and we have piles of these drawing books which are hilarious drawings of

[00:32:33] [SPEAKER_00]: See how ugly you can make that give them the book and let them draw you as ugly as he can

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And you realize before along the whole restaurant at first thought why the fuck are they bringing a three-year-old into this restaurant

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And at the end they're all jealous that they're not sitting in your table and the best restaurants give you paper to draw on

[00:32:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And if that isn't a signal just by it's every $2 shop in Sydney has them by one each for the kid right

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Then they get them to write in the front of the day and they become a beautiful document when they're 18 and

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: So bonnet as he's rounding up sheep and kuma

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_04]: That is such a good tip. Well, I mean, I'm I mentioned this to last week

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_04]: That my little girl really she loves to draw or she's a budding artist my

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You know my happy places almost like every my childhood school she's back left in her seat and

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_04]: You know and my little boys up front will be chatting away and then at the traffic lights

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_04]: I often turn around to just like make sure like house-rouging back there and the back says just full of notebooks and

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Just you know different like a half a pack of mermaid

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Text is like the restaurant the seats and stuff like just glittering shit everywhere but a studio basically in the back seat

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_04]: And I often turn around and she's like got it like one leg over the other and she's just like

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_04]: sketching away like drawing a unicorn or a good girl with a love heart head

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And I've got them all over the cart like just notes sometimes she's writing a letter

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_04]: She expresses herself very honestly she'll write

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Very beautiful letters, but then also like if she's not in a good mood

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_04]: She'll really let you know like I am angry yet because of this and then later. Oh, yeah

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Great things to keep direct like scouting faces like dad why did you pour my hair when you were putting my

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_04]: You know I'm very angry at you. I would never pull your hair

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, noted so I've got the feedback, but yeah that I love the idea of the prompt to like have

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_04]: It making an activity

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Well and hang man. I mean that you can feel a book it's not all image based

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you consider the Italian Renaissance one of the foundational parts of

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Education if you're lucky enough to be educated during the Renaissance was drawing and

[00:34:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Divinci drew through as a stream of education every child learned

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_00]: He just used it to to create art but all children could draw an adam me that was part of the education process

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Drawing is easy it's much easier. I mean I get so many people in Australia particularly

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I can only draw a stick figure. Well, can you write and read?

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the most sophisticated

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Compared to drawing learning how to not only read the whole alphabet but place it together into language and then write it

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Is infinitely more complex than learning how to draw

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I think so many people would say this a can draw well they just haven't had a lesson and you'll be able to teach them after this

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_04]: This is great at the end of this I'm very excited. I'm very excited to do this

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_04]: Do you look back sorry just to look back to your boy that he's he's off?

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Going back to your the emotion of his leaving at the start does it happen like do you have any things

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Where you go? I would have done that differently or not or are you of the mindset where you go

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_04]: It's all got us to this point so it all

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_04]: Had to be the way

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a good question there probably things I should regret more broadly in my entire life, but I don't

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I just don't have that in me. Yeah, I've done my best

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_00]: The guy what it's not perfect is far from perfect

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But I don't know this I don't I really don't what was your latest and because I think we all have this as dads

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_04]: What was your latest moment where you were like?

[00:36:13] [SPEAKER_04]: I think I got that I think I did that pretty well. I do have a you have a most recent like

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So Joe played this high school that I got flopped out and he hit it at six to win the game and scored a hundred and I ran on to the

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Oval and and ball to what has stripped to be honest with you. Hey, I mean should I didn't so that was one day

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I was pretty excited

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_04]: But I love that you pumped for him

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Mate

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think it gets much better than that. I mean, I know you've coached them through failure, but you probably also have to coach them through going

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_04]: You might never top this

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: It's also might be at the other end of the spectrum beautiful young men on the opposition had no idea that

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_00]: What's going on with this father is having a some form of meltdown

[00:36:52] [SPEAKER_00]: He's got a hundred he did yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But I should say that one of the things and I'm in the reason you're interviewing me is because I've

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Become a public person and that's been a treat very tricky thing

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got very very conscious of the entire way through and that's why the studio has never been at home

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_00]: We've tried to downplay it. I mean I remember being an Afghanistan for a month and Joe having a

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_04]: How old was he when he was about in the four and a half yeah, right five was that sorry?

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll let you finish but on on the being a public figure. Sorry continue

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I know well I was gonna say was that a difficult decision

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I also I think we went to the same base in town count. I was a man man and he went across

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_04]: In 2007 and yeah radio show from Afghanistan for a week so I'm sure we got some

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_04]: similar

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_04]: impressions yeah of

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_04]: the men and women over there

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_04]: But I didn't have kids when I remember leaving my I was you know I was 25 or so and my girlfriend the time was like

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm a little bit worried you're going to a war zone. I was like I haven't even as an even cross my mind

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_04]: But then when I had kids I was thinking

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think I could hear if you I don't know how I would have felt about that going going over because

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously over these very extremely safe you would you know the defense force it's goes that same

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's a very well run off operation. That means the military so you're not

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you're wandering around the streets of Canada hard by yourself or anything. No, but um

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Would you conscious of that that risk or was the yeah very and Kylie both of us were and that but it was such a natural

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: progression for my work about masculinity and the sort of self you know I

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Had questions what are you doing here? That's the first. What would you say you learned about

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Since it was about masculinity about the guys that are there serving what what was your takeaway

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I look I was very moved by them. I was very impressed by them all yeah

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I met a few guys who I thought you're

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Possibly psychopathic and that's but there's one in a hundred in my other side

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: a general

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Society and those guys say there's one in ten in special forces

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's an exaggeration, but there's a few of them and they won't kept

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: In check but they are rest of them were such an impressive group of young men and women

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Reading about learning passed on reading history of Afghanistan

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: They gave me most of the literature that that then led me to

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Really read pretty deeply about the history of the Middle East and Afghanistan and that it came from them while they were there

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Serving in Afghanistan and if you're trying to win hearts and minds you can't ask more than

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Those young men particularly who are fighting in combat positions to be understanding the culture and history of the people there

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, at war amongst it was really life changing yeah, I would say it came for me being a 25 and

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Pretty used to just mucking around and Tim was across with us as well

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_04]: You know we went because it seemed like a great adventure but then we quickly will like

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Obviously realize these again goes that's an serious nature of doing the people that are

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Serving in a combat role or in a combat zone everybody in the combat zone

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think we're also really struck by the selflessness

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Like people universally had been called and it was a selflessness that there was a service position

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm gonna go and

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Shoot guns and have a great time even so my question was still what are you doing here?

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I get the idea of service

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But why this in terms of you know in terms of like they were also young

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, oh, we're younger than us

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I hate a lot of them had kids. I don't know if that's what struck me home is I was talking to her

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I was 25 26 especially some of the special forces guys to who would go without

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_04]: The whole thing was you go for six months and

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I'd say where or how long and wives and partners on meeting young guys whose girlfriends had left them back home

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean it's hard enough when you're either into losing girlfriend but to see it in that circumstance when you're still facing six months

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember thinking I haven't felt a more emotionally dramatic and draining circumstance than these young young guys

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And 18 years old. I don't know if you remember home

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We were shooting a thing for roe which was like just shits and giggles like the lightest stupid as thing

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_02]: But then we started and people sort of were standoffish with the cameras

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: They didn't want to get too close whatever but then we

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Started setting up and saying I'll come and send a message home if you want and all of a sudden we had a line

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_02]: We should have just done that day just because it was the most powerful thing for sure

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was just the young guys and women going I just to shout out to Anna was like and I was like oh my god

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm getting I'm always on yeah, okay for a cheap gag and I was getting really emotional

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_04]: There was that we we come because we're like our job is telling them to make cheap gags

[00:41:56] [SPEAKER_04]: With all my heart or I want to do is just broadcast messages home for the sol just which is not

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_04]: But because we're so real to just like no matter what anyone said

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_04]: It was just a concept of money like you were real person

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_04]: With you with you know brothers sisters moms does family that are doing this in like thing that

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_04]: We definitely are not doing like we're tourists to this

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and look as funny you say that there are so shy cameras how a pro they were

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Demand demanded of to stay away from media terrified of media the whole idea

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Have had this thing of being scared of cameras no embedded journalists one Chris masters was it in four days was the only seriously

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Commit a journalist whereas America you just show up you didn't even need to make a real quick show up with the gear body armor

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I weapon if you wanted in the helmet and they let you go off you'd go and that's what really no one's taking responsibility for it

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what led to this

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Complete breakdown in in the social fabric of some men serving there because there was zero oversight

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: If they'd been journalists on the ground the whole time none of that would have happened. I don't think yeah, you know interesting

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_04]: From from that experience like you know, so you've got a four and a half year or boy at home

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_04]: You know did it change

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_04]: You know anything when you came back as a as a dad?

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I was just relieved

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Gave him a huge hug

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_00]: He had a he'd written the numbers on the wall of how many days I would be away and was putting crossers through them and I was very moving and

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Did it change anything?

[00:43:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it just is more of it was we were very deliberate on the decisions we made about me going

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_00]: In terms of how it would affect them and that's often been

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: for me maybe

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't change my career and

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I but if there was a regret

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: It would be nice for them not

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Just not to know that other people think more of me than they know of me

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean John living know who I am and they know that there are people out there who may be think more all this of me than what I am and that's

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that that the fame component that yeah, and that's a tricky thing. I think for them to never go

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: tricky for me so for them as

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00]: You know I did the turn living in the shadow of some of a parent

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I've done everything I can to minimize that shadow

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_00]: because it's unhealthy

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Saying all that image Joey, you know, maybe it's a bit narcissistic of us because Joey heading down the highway towards Kuma

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Couldn't give a rat to us about my fame or anything

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: In fact all he now wants to do is come in and see what I've made he's thinking about painting

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Seeing the images and that's really the core of it. So I think as soon as they're gone out they've you know

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Good luck good luck to add with your fucking fame or whatever

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_04]: Exactly

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, um

[00:44:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Caraging the last thing I wanted to work with is just encouraging kids creativity and whatever it is

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_04]: It's creativity. I'm fascinated by it because it's sort of the field we're in but

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Creating something where before there was nothing whether it's a song or a dance or a picture, you know

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I it's beautiful like it's it's a really it's a great thing to see in any one of any age

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_04]: But it's a very vulnerable thing to like it's a really scary thing to do and I see this in my kids too like that

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_04]: The nervousness of creation or like any kid that's creative has a nervousness to put it out into the world

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Was there anything that you did with your kids or like what do you do with your kids to encourage their creativity?

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're an American artist who I was a fan of Chuck Close said that

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_00]: saying which was spot on

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: The amateur's wait for inspiration the rest of this go to work and when he said it I thought yeah

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That's perfect you don't sit on my best one of my best mates the plumber

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Western Sydney he doesn't wait around to get inspiration to get on the fucking roof in zero degrees or

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: 50 degrees in the middle of summer. He just doesn't same sort of analogy it's hard work

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the time I remember thinking my children never wait for inspiration

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_00]: There's no such thing that the ego doesn't exist they just make that just go and they make and they make and they make

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_00]: If you give them paper if that's children here now the right age and you put good paper down

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't be a cheap ass and give them fucking crappy printing. This is what I wanted to give you how many gs

[00:46:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I should not share some home-ish it tight us and give your children what they deserve some good French

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you don't have to there's there's good paper that's pretty cheap it's beautiful drawing paper

[00:46:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And if they make one out of 100 drawings that's a gem you want that gem to last till your an old person

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: They can give it to their grandchildren say look at dad help me make when I was four

[00:46:54] [SPEAKER_00]: They don't stop making there's none of that worry they just make and it's such a powerful thing

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Somehow in our communities in our societies

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We undo that and we make them feel self-conscious about their creativity

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't get that in sport. They just keep accelerating on that path to their success

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But in the creative pursuit whether it's singing or drawing or making we we

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Ended of this self-consciousness in children and look I haven't looked back to myself for around

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_00]: 11 12 at eight nine ten they really I was seller, you know

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_00]: congratulated for drawing

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Beautiful drawings and making really flower English essays

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But by 12 and 13 there was men in my community who say I know no don't come on tone that back a bit

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's just for boys. It's for girls as well

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_00]: They just need to be encouraged to keep going at it just keep and just keep shoving paper in front of them if it's drawing is their thing

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Just or if they're seeing when they're little kids and some kids love to seeing

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Keep facilitating that and now we have all the technology pretty cheaply

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: To start recording them to hear their voices back to themselves and I phone can do it

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many ways to to enable them to continue

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Going to work in the morning and being creative because there's no better jobs just keep producing yeah, okay

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I love that I love that hey just before we finished two things

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Before we started

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We're here in your studio. We're reading this book about

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Nomes and some of your recent artwork have a no spoilers here

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Features the all the classic garden known with the red hat

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Realize this but you have this beautiful old book that Tim had when he was a kid but I'd never seen it before

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_04]: That there's kind of like a mistake around nooms right like they kind of like for people to do elf on the shelf

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Now I realize elf on the shelf just completely ripped off from

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Nooms like and you're telling me about your old man your dad would

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Set up scenes much like modern day elf on the shelf. I don't know if you guys do the elf

[00:48:57] [SPEAKER_04]: But where you come down in the morning and things it be rearranged and there'd be a garden

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm there and

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Little bits and pieces like that was that typical of your dad to have that creative

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Like that adventurous

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Dad dad facilitated crazy risk in this as well. I mean I remember

[00:49:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Jolly being two before he well before he could swim and looking down along the beach

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It's avalanche up on the northern beaches of Sydney and seeing Joe jump off the rocks thinking what

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_00]: What's just happened he's jumped into the surf and dad standing behind him jumped in after him

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Encourage Joe to jump in the surf before he could swim with no life first on and then dad jumped in

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And at that point I said dad that's my risk to take with him

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You took your risk with me and I'm lucky to be alive

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And now you're approaching 80 you got a pullback on that risk taking but dad was um and he still does my grand my

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Little niece and nephew my brother Jimbo's little girl and boy go to stay at their grandparents house

[00:49:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And the back lawn is is

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean you've got to be careful walking across the back lawn because dad's dug under a lot of it with little houses and mirrors

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So that you can look down into these has he tunnels and

[00:50:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Tree houses made out of tiny sticks in the trees and fake sandwiches and

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and he used to turn created like the little he would do the same thing to us but on a on a

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously massive level of turning all the furniture up down upside down in the land room or

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Collecting all the toys from our bedrooms and making these piles that almost touch the ceilings in the land room of all our toys

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: neatly piled up with little sandwiches cut out of

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Sandwich bread and and jam in between and we would know then look it's definitely the names and I

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe that more than Santa Claus what like what do you take away from that now as I'm as a 50

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm out looking back like what are you reckon it what are you reckon it put in in your

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_00]: on you

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Dad always used to say blight so what you do while you're waiting to die when we're kids

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you great album cover for you know

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Heavy death metal band

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But he met it in a really profound way

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Doesn't like you don't waste it around do not waste your time on anything

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Go if go and go and go and go and I think that's what that's funny in a way

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_04]: He was he was creatively doing what you what your messages to you know

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, he was producing yeah. He was you guys would go to bed at night and you can do you see me going

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe I do a known prank yeah, he'd be up all night doing it. I think because all but I love I mean to me that just don't get me right in the heart because you're like that

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Again is that a great example of you would never know if he didn't do that you wouldn't no

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_04]: No one would ever know if he didn't do that but the fact that he did now gives you a lifelong memory. It's actually really good point

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we all some of us to bless her or more extent do it on Christmas Eve

[00:51:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But I remember my middle brother putting my children to bed

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_00]: On Christmas Eve and I stoked you know at that point before children

[00:51:58] [SPEAKER_00]: He wasn't very paternal he said I'd like to put them to bed

[00:52:01] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's beautiful of you and he

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Joe came running out and our latest saying daddy is a big fat man smoking cigarettes is gonna break into my room in the middle of the night

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And I couldn't I said yeah, he will but he's okay

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Joe said he might be drunk as well because he's been drinking everyone's alcohol

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[00:52:22] [SPEAKER_00]: The corner is now

[00:52:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Always make the pipe when he's resting at the end

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_00]: That's true. I think Simon changed it to a bit of people who people I'm sure he did

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so so you little things like that and dad doesn't might might those grandchildren if he's

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll have this memory of that backyard that will really I think from my experience of having that as a

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Keepable inform their lives and it's not that hard you don't have to go to the extent of

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Trashing your entire back garden

[00:52:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You just need to get some toys from their bedroom and build a pyramid and cut a little sandwich next to any children under the age of

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know I should try it on jodonite and see how he goes with it

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Look at this Joe. What's this little sandwich?

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I can't know dad's lost it and so I've only been got a month and he's completely got a water

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Mate, I'm real thank you so much Ben lead we we're gonna stop now and I mean

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_04]: He's my wish for the for the drawing master class

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04]: Something that you could give me that I could then take home to my six-year-old girl and non-year-old boy and go hey guys

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I've learned a little drawing easy. He's got it mate. I've got it for you. Well it depends on your community

[00:53:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That's true. This is couple of my best artists through me and now you get 3% of it

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_04]: You'll be coughing a nasty letter from your beautiful daughter before

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Get a few all right, let's do it. Thank you mate

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay so it turns out the drawing lessons and podcast are not entirely natural

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Companions so I'm gonna talk you through these very visual next bit

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Are you ready? Yeah

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay here we go

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Quickly show you on a high quality bit of paper Ben starts pouring an oval a really good one

[00:54:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So children you'll end maybe you too, hey, miss you draw children will often draw and they'll

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Put the eyes up he Ben pops some eyes up near the top of the oval face

[00:54:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, yeah, but it's about anatomy really Ben now gets rid of the kids face and he starts a new circle

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the anatomy of the human skull is uniform and I have if you go halfway halfway down

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_04]: That's exactly where the center of the black part of our eyes is Ben now instead puts two dots for the eyes right in the middle of the oval face

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Half-an-the-head this is already like we're two dots into the circle and I'm learning something and then

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_00]: The nose sits a quarter of the way the breed bottom of the nose sits a quarter of the way down

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_04]: And the mouth sits an eighth of the way down the center of the mouth. All right, so to recap

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Eyes halfway down knows the core of the way down so halfway between the eyes and bottom of the head and then mouth and

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Eight so sort of halfway between the nose and the bottom of the head and you're here if it was you

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, miss it's up of your eye

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Settle burn there from Ben who has actually fantastic long locks of the hair

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Fair enough and that's just a very simple way of

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Creating for children something that is more life like because it's based on the mathematical anatomy of the way human skull works

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_04]: How about that? I love that but that really I was like, oh, you know, drink me good at it in 15 minutes

[00:55:35] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean it took a minute

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, do you want them now? I think you should ever go yeah give us a shot all right, right

[00:55:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Good luck, I wish I guess it's just like head shape doesn't it looks kind of an oval isn't it?

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish Blake about to undo the western cannon in three

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Fowl strokes look at that's very elegant very elegant beautiful color now remember in mass

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Got our black the pupils

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Nice, thank you. I'm already trying to get tricky just by doing nostrils good and then between half-out in that cut

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_03]: That's good you should enter them in the actual how about some eyebrows?

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought I actually had done the other sort of top leader. I think I came on

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_04]: so much emotion and melancholy and

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Wow, says a lot doesn't it my put that portrait? It's like a I drew 10 second egg with it

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It is please give me this would be right you mate actually let's see if I can

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Let's see if we can do 10 does this ever happen where halfway through make it look more

[00:56:35] [SPEAKER_04]: For sure you get it by the muse

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Just come here. Oh, yeah, he is a tough arm. No, well

[00:56:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Well you've got a good one

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Now you're using mass again to see where the bottom of the he sits

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Quite quite quite big years Tim

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Not my fault just flame the nuts mate. I think it's better we cut down in the podcast

[00:56:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's beautiful what you're doing

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_04]: I forgot about the podcast now I'm lost

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_04]: There's a lot to the faces and then go easy on the wrinkles me you've got him you've got him

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_01]: That's you Timmy I can now

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_04]: My Jesus

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Tim was

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Static with the likeness of this portrait. I think it's very good congratulations

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_04]: Well, T. Why already? I could that's a much better

[00:57:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Painting of you Tim that I would have thought I could ever do and for your babies they will be learning mass at the same time

[00:57:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Unreal yep, thanks, Danny

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You're a pretty good two actually all right. Let's wrap this thing up

[00:57:33] [SPEAKER_04]: Then wouldn't absolute trait mate. I mean this is actually probably one of the only very few times that we got to actually meet one of the children before actually

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_04]: To be the recording and like I said, you know him clearly embodies all the things you spent the last 18 years of your life

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Putting so much time and love and thought into it. It's so evident

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for teaching us thanks for talking to me. It's been a pleasure mate. Then your drawings not barely

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_04]: So just a recap that is renowned award winning artist Ben Quilty saying that about my work

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So one an absolute absolute legend. I didn't really know what he was gonna teach me there at the end for the painting stuff

[00:58:20] [SPEAKER_04]: I hope that makes sense in audio format. I will put a picture up on like I guess I have to put it up on my Instagram

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Roundabout when this episode comes out of the painting idea of Tim look he's not good

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_04]: Like it's it's my first time I've ever painted a human face and it's like just like a very simple

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Dearing as you heard but it was almost good enough when I took a home and I showed my wife

[00:58:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I thought you know she's like how's the chat with Ben? I was like he painted a portrait of Tim look at this

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Like how special is this it's a Ben Quilty

[00:58:50] [SPEAKER_04]: And I would say for about five seconds. She was like oh

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, wow and then it kind of sunk in it's just like did is that him?

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But for those five seconds got it felt good to be on his level so if you would like

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_04]: To experience that five seconds of feeling like you have gone on for being complete shit artists to being out of drawing human face

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I recommend giving you go I actually do it with the kids. They have loved it and they've remembered this rule

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Because obviously we did this we record these quite a while ago and then I do the tops and tails

[00:59:19] [SPEAKER_04]: You know do these later on and

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_04]: You know we have we do do a lot of drawing now more much more so than we did I loved that little tip that he

[00:59:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, we do take notes and stuff to restaurants and we do have a go at drawing me

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I agree we have a good job going drawing ourselves in all sorts of different ways

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So now I had a door that chat with Ben like

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So just so wise man you just love listening to people that are that intelligent and willing to unpack

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_04]: Their thoughts in real time and share that stuff with us

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Another I mean so many great takeaways, but boy I've really

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I have implemented

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Ever since our chat many things he said but that the analogy of like learning how to go out well in cricket and and think about the other person

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_04]: And you know whatever place you come in a race is a way to do that well that's definitely

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_04]: That's a that's a philosophy I'll take it I've taken away and tried to impart gently in in our own way

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You know our own life to work in so again thanks Ben so good

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Massive massive wealth of notes taken down in that app. We'll see you next time everyone

[01:00:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Tell if the dead's dead is produced by myself and my mate Tim Bartley the theme song is thanks to the

[01:00:39] [SPEAKER_04]: Incredibly talented Tom Cardi you can find him drenched throughout the internet

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_04]: That special episode from Ben's studio was recorded in the beautiful southern

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Highlands country of the Gundam Garra people and we pair respect to their ongoing connection to that land

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_04]: If you want to say hi hit your website how are the dads dead?

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Dot com but most of all thank you for listening

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_05]: All the dead's dead

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, last of the things last of the credits and there is one last thing we need you to hear and that is our thanks to

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Asponsor hurts hurts step up to the plate. We kind of had a deal where we're like look if there's gonna be a sponsor

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_04]: We just want one sponsor for the whole season hurts allegiance

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_04]: We stand for the same things with love the idea that they are memory makers

[01:01:36] [SPEAKER_04]: They're weak end-away facilitators. They're adventure facilitators there holiday facilitators

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_04]: So if you do need a car

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Contact hurts if you don't need a car

[01:01:45] [SPEAKER_04]: Look they're still lovely to talk to but

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_04]: You're just not gonna have as much value. I think in the interaction as someone who who did need to render cars

[01:01:53] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's primarily the market they go for and on top of that hurts are also offering listeners of however

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Dad's dead 25% off the base rate when you hire a card just go to herster.com.au

[01:02:05] [SPEAKER_04]: For such a D.D. and check out the terms and visions enjoy your 25% saving thanks again for listening and thanks hurts