How Dr Richard “Harry” Harris Dads - teaching kids to be good risk managers, not risk takers + lots more!

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: This episode is a pretty special episode of How Other Dads Dad and to celebrate that our sponsor is offering you

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[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Hang on a second. Is this the same special offer you talk about at the start of every episode?

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[00:00:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Good question good point. That's how special it is though so special that it has

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Been extended to also this week and may well extend into next week

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we probably just we've broken a bit caught up trying to do the trying to link this specialness to the episode

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[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: How Other Dads Dad

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: This is actually a very special episode of How Other Dads Dad

[00:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean they of course they all are but we were pretty we're pretty excited to have this man join us

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr Richard Harris aka

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Harry to those that are lucky enough to know him a bit closer

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: If you need a bit of context for Dr. Richard Harris

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: He really was at the center of possibly one of the most incredible stories this century

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course the Thai cave rescue where 12 young soccer players and their coach were

[00:01:35] [SPEAKER_01]: trapped in a flooded cave in Thailand and

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: There was an international effort and led by the Thai government and then of people from Australia like Dr.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Harry and his diving buddy Craig Chalon to

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Come up with a way to get these kids out of the cave. There are some amazing dockos on this

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure people have seen if you haven't you really do have to check it out

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just such a phenomenal story because of how audacious the plan to get the kids out what was

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Harry being well, you know one of the very few people on the planet that was both an incredibly skilled cave diver and

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and an anesthetist and

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming up with the idea of anesthetizing the kids to get them out of that really complex situation

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: was

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Not only mind-bending and how unique that was and never been tried before and and you know and Harry talks about hell

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know absolutely they did not believe it had much of a chance of working but even more incredible is the fact that it did work and

[00:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Harry was able to use his

[00:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: incredible mix of

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: high high high level technical skill both with diving and being an anesthesiologist with

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Managing the risk and the danger involved for those kids and their families and the people who's working with so not not surprisingly a

[00:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Lot of the chat focuses what would what we talk about is risk and overcoming fear and how

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: We can apply what he did at a very very extreme level that will never face

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But take those lessons and apply it in real-world scenarios that we do face because I think things like risk and resilience and

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: How to manage that with both ourselves and our kids is something that is really something

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think about a lot and I think it's a lot of what we what we do and how we look to raise our kids in a world

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Where we have maybe a different relationship to risk than there there was in yesteryear

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So he's an excellent mind. I think on this subject. He's got a great heart

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: He's got an awesome podcast series that he doesn't do anymore, but there's three seasons

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think which I loved called real risk. He's written some great kids books

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: exploring different ways to be brave and kind

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: if you search dr. Richard Harris, you'll find those and

[00:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: He's of course the father of three now adult kids

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was super excited to sit down with Harry

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I should point out a couple of days before we recorded this he he has since hung up the

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Stethoscope I want to say but it's the needle. He's not an anesthesiologist anymore

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't any still is but he's not practicing anymore and now he's lucky enough to actually go and make

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Cave diving films and an adventure films

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Full-time this is sort of given him a license to do that which is his real passion as much as he likes putting people to sleep

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: This that's his real passion. He just come back from an

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: phenomenally

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Deep and adventurous cave dive a couple of days earlier and he'd run into a few little risks

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So real legend for still flying across to Melbourne from South Australia and coming to chat with us

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: We were excited to aid to meet Harry, but be also just the we knew the medical situation

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It was coming from and he still managed to front up. So

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Really appreciate him being there in the first place. I loved this chat

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope you get out a lot of it too. Please enjoy how Richard Harris dad

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Harry thank you so much, mate. Thanks very much great to be here. It really it's so it's so fun

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We've been pen pals a little bit from I'm a fan. I'm a mara of your podcast

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I love your work and now we get to finally sit down together

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you mate, and I know I mean this will play out much later in the year, but you are

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming off a slight case of the bends. I mean well

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure just a touch of the bends

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So cool it ends which is a it's a bit of an occupational hazard for you as a cave diver or someone that's like

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I know you don't you won't blow your own horns. So I will hear but we were just talking off air

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: someone that's you know pushing

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Severe depth limits with how deep into caves you're diving you are you know a couple of days ago

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: You're in a hospital and now you have bounced out. Yep

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I wasn't gonna miss the podcast just because I was slightly paralyzed so

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_00]: But I've just been walking around Melbourne the legs feel good

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I've just bought a new pair of shoes and I suddenly realized when the lady is asking me do they feel comfortable

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going I can't really feel my left foot, but the right one feels alright

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They feel the same on each foot

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Right speak mate. Thank you for being I mean, I feel like I should just point out to you

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You're going how deep did you get to in that dive?

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, we've just come back from this exploration of a cave in South Africa and we went to the bottom which is

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: 284 meters there was a bit of a high tide

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So we probably got a meter deeper than previous people have but only because there was a rain

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's some watery and it's not that easy

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_00]: How do we?

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Mate that's phenomenal. Yeah, no it was exceptional trip and a personal kind of best for me

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know the point of it just to be clear wasn't to get a number or to get a record of any kind which we didn't

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_00]: but was just to you know

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Continue this this exploration that I've been doing for many years

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Going deeper and deeper into these places to see what's there and to bring back vision of these places that most people will never see

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah bring back some video of these places is a real buzz for me

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a phenomenal thing as a real surface dweller

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It is and we will talk, you know

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we'll talk about your underwater exploits and the things that you have done and do down in caves and what it means to

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You personally and I got a feeling that I you know risk and and the right amount and

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Your relationship with it is what I'd love to get into today

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But before we begin in terms of dating

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's get your dad statistics up from up top that statistic how many of you got how many kids have you got three kids?

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so they're now all in their 20s 24 20 now

[00:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: This is one of the issues that I could be criticized for from my family is

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_00]: forgetting their birthdays and never quite remembering how old they are but I'm gonna go with

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: 2426 and 28 this week. I've got great news. You're on you correct

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_00]: No

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so yeah, you got you know your kids are in into their 20s now

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So do you feel like you've got a bank of knowledge now? Do you feel like you've got a library or do you feel like you still learn?

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I've got a litany of mistakes behind me

[00:08:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the best way to look at it in my perspective because I don't think anyone any dad would or mum would ever be happy with

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: What they've done in terms of bringing up children. There's so many things you could do better

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_00]: But I do feel like I've been through that maybe the three big phases, you know the the tiny dependent person

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: The teenager who's busting out and causing your grief and now these human beings that have turned into friends, which is

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe the part I've always been looking forward to because now you can sit down like we are and actually have a chat about the world

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And politics and you know and they're they're all you know

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Politically correct as that generation is because I'm approaching 60

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm now you know the worst kind of person in their eyes at times, you know that middle-aged white man who says everything

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Incorrectly all the time just triggering him nonstop and yeah, they're triggered

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_00]: They're a trend a word that I never even knew about I'm triggering my own children. We were allowed to be triggered

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But no one was triggered by anything so you just sucked it up and get on with it

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, well, I'm not gonna be an old man on this podcast

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna try and be cool like you guys and I know well

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, but I have got a bit of an old man perspective

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I think and so I've I've sort of I can think about my father's parenting techniques

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_00]: My parenting techniques and how these young experts will will be parenting what change from your dad's generation to your generation

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Why don't we start there? What did you take from him and what did you actively perhaps try to do differently?

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't say I wanted to do too much differently because my parents were amazing. I'm the most privileged

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: fortunate person in the world, you know, I had a perfect upbringing. Honestly, I can't complain about anything

[00:09:38] [SPEAKER_00]: middle-class

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Adelaide, you know always food on the table always a roof over our heads safe environment

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Very loving family two sisters who you know as a younger brother, you know, they didn't torture me too much

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was always grateful and a huge extended family of cousins and uncles and aunties all really really close. It's you know

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: unusually

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: You know fairy tale like like existence and so I feel incredibly spoiled

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's pretty it's pretty hard to live up to that goal almost

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's it. I suppose then there are moments

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there moments where you feel like you don't you that isn't your kid's reality and you're adapting to that and you're changing to

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I try and be critical and analytical about my parents parenting

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Looking back because it wasn't I guess a nursery rhyme all the time. Um or fairy tale

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I think was the word I used you know, dad worked very hard

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So he was often absent and I guess I was the same we were both doctors

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So lots of hours at work a lot of time away from my kids and my family

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But what I remember about dad in particular is that he would make up for it 100 when he was present

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of fantastic holidays. No one ever went overseas in those days

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was always a summer holiday to a beach house somewhere that we'd rent

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_00]: A little boat fishing that's where I sort of started my love of the ocean and diving and so forth

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I have this dream like

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Recollection of life based around summer holidays. That's beautiful. Well, I mean we do you know

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We get varying aspects of that on the show and you know, I know it's a reality for the vast amount of people

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is like we're time poor your time poor and you want to make the moments count with your kids

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: When you were when you're raising your kids is that how did you make it count?

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I did try to do the same because I was absent a lot and not just because of my work

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But also because of this obsession with expedition diving and exploration. So that actually took me away for

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes up to 12 weeks a year. I mean it's slightly embarrassing to say that out loud now

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: so, you know, my wife is a genuine saint not a literal saint but a genuine saint and she has put up with a fair bit

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think because of my absenteeism

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a what something I'd love to touch on because at the core of a decision like that is to go, you know

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a fascination with cave diving. Get you're also as a anesthetist, you know, you're working in

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I can imagine the demands are huge, you know surgeries variable hours

[00:12:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But then to add on top of that the this personal development piece

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Of course, there's like one lens where like there's an there's an element of like people would look at and go

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: We could all name our hobbies and or our things our passions and go if that pulls you away from your family

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: you could go okay, that's selfish but

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The other lens is to go but it but it's who you are and it provides a lot. And so is that the balance that you

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Tried to find to go well, this is who I am and there is a value in

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: In showcasing that to your kids growing up. Yeah, I'd like to say that the motivation was all about

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: You know inspiring this younger generation to be the best they can be

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But the reality is it was a selfish selfish pursuit of doing something that I absolutely loved and you know

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Was to some degree. I'm still am some to some degree obsessed by

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're right. It is who I am grapple with that. Do you do? Yeah, still trying?

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a source of guilt and probably the one major bone of contention in our marriage

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: It's not supposed to be a husband and wife podcast

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_00]: But I mean what goes on in the family reflect, you know influences that's a very big part of it

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so I would say that that's been a source of

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Never any serious

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Anx but you know, it's the one thing that has probably piss Fiona off a fair bit over the years is

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You know the degree that I put this first

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_00]: When clearly there are other priorities that I should be putting first, but

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: In my own mind, I do partly justify that by saying if I don't do this

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I won't be the guy that you

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Fell in love with and married and there's a degree of truth in that as well

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So it is a it is a constant balancing act. Well, certainly in your world

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You're no different than any other elite performer, you know, you're doing things that are a handful of people

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, even just hearing just the stories we're talking about just quickly this afternoon

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Far far far less people are doing what you're doing at that depth than a going up man Everest for example

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's such a unique edge that you're at that

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Then probably, you know, then carries with it its own

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Special relationship with risk and and the juice being worth the squeeze and all that that kind of stuff

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_00]: That's obviously something Mount Everest is an interesting analogy because for me

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I admire intensely the people who do climb Mount Everest because of the personal sacrifice and the and the

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: the grit and sheer

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Misery that would be involved in that but then I look at those pictures of the people lined up and I go

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to do that. Yeah

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_00]: For me, the diving has always been about going somewhere that no one's been before and and being you know an explorer

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what turns me on. Can you trace that back to anywhere in your life? No, not really

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been a really slow burn actually if anything it's got worse as I got older and and you know

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_00]: As you get older you have more disposable income

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully and you know your life is a bit more certain and set up and so you have more opportunity to start to push these interests

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Whereas, um, you know 15 to 25 year old Harry never had any money

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And he had one scuba tank in a homemade Hawaiian sling hands pier sort of thing

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And that was the limit of my but I but within that I would explore as much as I could

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But no moment dad were pretty conservative

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Not I wouldn't consider risk takers dad had his little boat

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He loved to just poodle around offshore catching whiteing and I can remember being in the boat with him saying

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00]: If we got a bigger hook, you know, well, let's get a huge bait and put it on a big hook and go out push it a bit

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Deep water and see what's down there. See what we can catch a shark or something

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I just was always looking at the horizon thinking what are we doing in here? We need to get a bigger boat

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know and uh, that's interesting. Um, he was like no no no

[00:15:37] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the whiteing are the best eating fish in the in the world. We won't be going

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_00]: It was satisfied. It was satisfied. He loved his one interesting that you grew out of that yet

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Very rapidly sort of overtook him and ended up with a bigger boat

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of let's start also at the top if I could get you three pillars of parenting for you

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If you had to sort of name three cornerstones

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: for

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Your philosophy to raising your kids

[00:16:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The three things that you would like to kind of have them remember you buy if you could think of them

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay. Well, I hadn't quite thought about it in those terms how they would well

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean I asked the same question every podcast but I always rephrase it in a different way

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't even know what I'm asking because completely thrown me. I was I was looking for a three word

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Kind of you know three words that sum it up three words that sum up

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, I mean I would probably borrow something from Nike and say just do it because there's you know

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard it. I bet every guest that said there's no manual that comes with them

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So you have no idea what you're doing. Everyone's got an opinion

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're the one who has to just crack on with it. So you just do your best

[00:16:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're born with this

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Powerful emotion of caring for these things that pop into your life

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And you don't want to make a mess of it. You want to make them into the best people that they can be

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And what I have learned is the most overwhelming emotion for me is I just want them to be happy

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and I don't care whether

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Whether they're a professor or a podcaster. I wouldn't even care if they were a podcaster a dirty

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Podcaster just sitting in a random hotel room chatting to people

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: What is but they're like I find that's I'd say we all share that feeling too

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: What does happiness mean for you like because

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Am I my someone telling me be happy just playing ps5 all day currently currently, but I know that's not happiness

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, what are the hallmarks of that for you? And then how do you go about facilitating that?

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think it starts with family and friends, you know having loving

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Relationships and good people around you who care for you

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I shouldn't talk about anything too specific with my children now they are adults

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_00]: But for example seeing my daughter in a loving relationship at the moment

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: That is a source of huge joy to me and realizing that the blokes, you know, hasn't got two heads and he's not a bad guy

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's a big fan of yours by the way, so he sounds like a very good guy

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: He's top bloke. So he'll be quite excited that he's even been mentioned in this podcast

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean that that's the sort of thing you look for and knowing that, you know

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: All your kids have got good friends around them

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And this big family that still kind of nurtures them the village is still caring for these kids

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is great my sisters and their

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Families and and so on. So that's obviously something that you put in place

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_01]: That was from your childhood you put that in place early to foster those close connections

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: If they're things that spring to mind as

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you could look and go okay that that had a pretty

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Good effect on keeping us close as a family. Well, I'm a huge fan of outdoor

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Outdoor play and outdoor adventuring as a way to bond the team together

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That's been a mantra in my life from my personal experience

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: You know a little bit of suffering and sometimes being a bit cold and miserable actually is a great way to facilitate

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Amazing memories love this and fascinated by love to dig into it because

[00:18:49] [SPEAKER_01]: There's an art to it

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_01]: There is an art to doing that with your family and doing that with your with your kids and and tailoring it to their needs

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that what you found, you know, I'm

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you make mistakes with them? Did you yeah, I probably didn't tailor it sufficiently to their needs at times

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_00]: There are a few incidents that where I you know pushed my personal

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Adventure agenda too far and the kids came off second best

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I went oh

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Apparently you can't write ride down a 45 degree slope on a tricycle and not end up in a

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Tangled mess down the bottom with all the skin missing from your face

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, that's what mrs. Harris is there for to point out these errors to me

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, what if the kids say said to you let's say 10 years old and they're like, I don't want to do it

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to do it anymore. I hate it. I don't want to if they say I don't want to do it anymore

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That's fine

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_00]: But if they say I don't want to do it, but I've never tried it then they'll get some pushback

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, we come from a long line of hopeless sports people

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'm the leader of that, you know genetic pool

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So I couldn't do anything at school with any great skill couldn't kick couldn't catch couldn't throw couldn't jump couldn't run

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I fell over once doing the 100 meter race just fell over

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like lying on my face confusing race

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: My legs got all tangled up. They were trying to go faster than they were able so

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So I passed those genes onto my kids and you know, I remember watching the boys playing soccer

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I remember my middle son charlie

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: A little bit of a dreamer sort of looking up at the trees and the birds as the ball would sort of roll past his feet

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like charlie

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00]: He's going yes dad. He just looks at me and the long gone, you know the plays moved on

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I was a bit like that and um, they inherited those genes so then from there you've gone and done something

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you still have a love of physical

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Adventure but just not in the yeah, just as long as it doesn't require any coordination

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why diving is great because you just float float around

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Floating down

[00:20:37] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's why you find find something that's good for you and there's a serious message in that

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I you know, I do a bit of speaking now and I love talking to young audiences and young parents

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: To to make sure that they are empowered to let their kids take some risks because I think that's massively important

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_00]: But also to say to kids like doesn't matter if you're not on the footy team or the tennis team

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Or whatever the team is you'd like to be on or you can't do this or you can't do that

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Just find something you can do and but I think that's the best at it. I think that's so yeah

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Like going back to going we just want to see our kids happy

[00:21:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm really interested in this aspect probably because it relates a little bit to where my kids are at

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: In their life as they're right at that age where they're figuring things out. So I it kind of hits deep for me at the moment

[00:21:18] [SPEAKER_01]: but building that

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Ability to keep going and to keep keep going until something clicks

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, that that is what we remember when we saw we went out kids to be happy

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think digging one like one layer deeper under it

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's a little bit about self-belief. We we want to put our kids in a

[00:21:35] [SPEAKER_01]: In an environment where they can build belief in their abilities

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to get your thoughts on this but I my theory is that self-belief is that sort of precursor to then

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Your relationship with risk, which is what you talk a lot about

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Because if you believe in your abilities or you have an inkling of belief

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It will encourage you to take that little bit of risk

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you don't have self-belief and you're not

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have self-confidence as a kid

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: That's when the ripcourt is pulled and they won't

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Lean into a risk. Yeah, definitely. Um, so you need to tell them that they can do that but not actually

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell them how great they are all the time

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Because they also need to learn to lose and to fail well

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's as important if not more important because let's face it

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Most of us will fail many many more times than we will succeed

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And we won't be good at things many many or much more often than we will become successful at something

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So you just need to constantly go. Oh fail again bad luck. What else can I try? You know get ready to move on

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's the thing. I really think it's important to teach kids how to do now

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_00]: This is the ultimate lage man gonna launch in here. So one of my pet. Thank you

[00:22:50] [SPEAKER_00]: One of my pet peeves is the school system that says every child player must win a prize

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are no winners. There's no losers. We can have these two teams playing each other

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But at the end of the day, what a great day. No one won. No one lost

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: and

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: What what an amazing feeling it is when you occasionally win

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And what a normal feeling it is when mostly you lose and to pick yourself up and dust yourself off

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And and I don't know if this might actually be starting to change. I think they're starting to phase this out a little bit

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it had its moment and has maybe gone because I think you realize too having kids going through junior sports

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: There's definitely an element at the beginning where it's like we're not scoring because no, we're just this is the first time

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: you guys can't score and

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You just kicked a goal off your head in AFL

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: At the wrong end

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the wrong and it went in the bin and that's actually not the goal

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But you're celebrating so fair enough. We'll let you have that moment

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, then as they get older there is that there was I think there was that sort of world

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But it I'm with you. I mean winning and losing is

[00:23:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the people that ban winning and losing have sort of missed the point because you're banning it thinking it's the point of the game

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a part of the game. Yeah, it necessitates you getting in the arena

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's not the point of being in there

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I played a little bit of schoolboy footy and rugby and stuff

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I remember those days when you come off the field covered in mud and you've come last

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But the team has played its best ever match and you've bonded with your brothers out there

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And that is a far superior feeling to be part of that that unit of people that just flocked themselves to to get that

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Bad result, but you know what I mean? Just you feel similar to what you're saying about

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Bonding as a family. Yeah getting a little bit cold a little bit wet and a little bit hungry to

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Incrementally learn to be okay in that discomfort. Is that yeah, is that maybe two words

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I could use to to talk about the things I hope I've imparted on my kids to some degree is tenacity and resilience

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know resilience is just every third word these days

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But it is massively important, especially in a world where everything is

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_00]: For for the lucky few of us living in a country like Australia who you know in middle class and so on

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I know there's a lot of people in Australia who are not

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Doing so well, but for people like myself the world has become a very safe and easy place to live

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why it's one of the reasons I actually go out of my way to find discomfort and challenge in in my pursuits like like diving

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally. Do you ever get the talk from your wife going?

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and again, I'm just generalizing here because there are a lot of amazing women adventurers doing amazing things

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I say to my wife like oh, I want to go and do this like two-day adventure race. She's like

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: God what what a luxury that you need to go and find difficulty. Yeah

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: She's like because my she's like in my life. I've got enough difficulty. I don't need to go and do this

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, that's right. So you do there is that element where it's like, okay

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: We it's manufactured so acknowledging that but it's the lessons you learn

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Especially for the things you're doing

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean is it because you know even with older kids

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You're still seeking to learn those lessons of how you perform at that edge

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so and I feel the constant need to challenge myself

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And doing an ultra marathon or something that you know is your

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Passion is something that would I would find elusive because I don't think I've got the mental stamina

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_00]: To do that and I certainly don't think I've got the physical ability

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Although I have started doing marathons the last few years and that that has been a massive challenge for me that I've managed to

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_00]: You know pursue and and um and and achieve

[00:26:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And and get over the line. So I think it's not an unusual thing to find that later in life that sort of

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: hashing for

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: are

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Seeing how you go like for endurance events

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I I came to that later in life too and then instantly it's something that I'm trying to impart on a seven-year-old who

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Could easily point to me as a seven-year-old and go well, mate

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: This wasn't something you were doing when you were seven and I fall into that trap a little bit of

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Learning these lessons later in life, but feeling them so deeply that I want to like

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Really enthusiastically impart them on my kids and I know resilience gets bandied around a lot

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're a great man to talk to about it

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: What are some of the ways you built resilience when your kids were little uh if you can remember anything specific?

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, can I just say just because it occurred to me that you know what you said is true that um, you know

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You might seven-year-old hamish might not have been you know an athlete or doing long distance running

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But your seven-year-old is now thinking oh, dad's do

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Long distance running or dad's do crazy two-day events through the mountains and in the rivers

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_00]: You hope that it can normalize that that's just normalizing it now for your seven-year-old

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And so they will have this vision of them in their 40s of of course. I'll be doing something like that

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's massively important to set those examples

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And I and I do believe that my kids are quite proud of the stuff

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I do and they think it's kind of cool that their dad does something a bit

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: A bit crazy and a bit different and a bit extreme maybe because I wanted to ask this too

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It by the same token that you you didn't

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Necessarily pick up that risk appetite from your parents. It just was there. It was something that bubbled up inside you

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see it now in your kids who are in their mid to late 20s? Do they have

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Whether it's specifically wanting to go into diving or is there an analogy where you're like

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that their risk appetite is healthy

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Because they've seen what I do and they're applying it in their own world

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know whether it's because of me but they do have um a good appetite for risk

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes like all young people it's you know, it's and it was certainly the case in my teenage years and maybe early 20s that

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_00]: My risk management skills weren't as good as they they could have been and you know,

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Especially boys 15 to 25 extraordinarily dangerous time in their lives for you know

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Hurting or killing themselves with you know drink driving and so forth. So, you know, you are an incredibly bad judge

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Of risk and decision-making in your opinion. Is it is it?

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: What can we do to kids to teach them risk management skills at a much younger age?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So by the time you hit those teenage years, you may be stand a better chance. I it's just such an inherently genetic

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Dangerous time of life especially for boys. I don't think you're having any of the sensible 17 year old boys

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You're gonna not you just have to put as much padding around them and and give them good

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_00]: You know

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Make a good example of yourself to them

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But just be prepared that it's a dangerous time and you know, put everything in place

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember my mum and dad saying to me when I started driving

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We don't care how late it is. We don't care how drunk you are

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You ring us if you can't drive. We shouldn't be driving. Just ring us three in the morning. We don't care

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and we absolutely said that to our kids and often they would pick up the phone and say, uh, you know

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I need a lift

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They've called my bluff

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's all you can do isn't it just to

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Put a safe framework around them and hope for the best and and and I guess it's you're facing your own fears of

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Something happening to your kids. Of course. Yes terrifying. That's the terrifying part that I know is waiting down the road

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Introducing the concept of a you know, a stretch which I suppose is for a little kid is that's a risk

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just we're talking about just stretching

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: 5% past where you feel you're safe

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: To me, that's what that's what growth is all about. You're just you don't want to snap it

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You stretch too far you snap and then you've got a whole bunch of different problems

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But you as a

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Parent I like I I know you can do this. I find myself constantly trying to solve that problem

[00:30:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Teach me string because I keep running into that brick wall. I'm not Obi-Wan Kenobi

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm I'm afraid I don't think I mean I don't know how to get around that

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're right. You can push and think and you can suddenly cross the line from stretch to disaster

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I have done that the the little girl going down the hill on the tri-school

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Entirely my fault. Yeah, and then my wife's down the bottom picking up the pieces

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Giving me the look like I can't believe you sent her down that hill on the tri-school because it was always going to end

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Badly I took my son diving

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, I wanted my kids to dive

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just wanted one dive buddy right out of the three of them

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So the middle son foolishly expressed a bit of an interest so right off we go

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna do a course. I was at the course with him. I was like the worst dad diving

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Person you could imagine way too eager way too keen and we got in the water

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Under the jetty

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There was a bit of a surge the visibility was terrible and he was a kid who'd always complained that saltwater hurt his legs

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't know what I was thinking and nursing the whole boy in the water

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, he were we're down the bottom

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: We taught him all the signals and he gets to the bottom and he gives me the thumbs up

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Which means I want to go up and I go come on you only just got here, mate

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Just I was just going just hold on just keep breathing

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he's like all right if you won't come up with me. I'm going by myself

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was up

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So I had to go up with him and he took the mask off and said I never want to do that again

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I hated it and I felt terrible like it was the worst

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_00]: One of the worst parenting moments for me that I realized immediately that I had made my son do something

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He never wanted to do probably and it was just all me push push push

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the thing we fall victim to which is the script. We're like, oh my god

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You get carried away writing the script of the next 10 years and it looks terrific

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love this script

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But I want to make up for that by telling a story of a couple of things that I did

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_00]: With my kids that set them off on a path that you know, they never turned back from let's this is because you know

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I've got a million file stories. So I've only got a couple of success

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But I love I love that and that is kind of the ratio

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is where it's it's

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's important to remember that that is the ratio

[00:32:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna make these arrows going to make these blunders and they're all well intentioned

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So what did what did you do that set them off on their own?

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, the first one was when I was a medical student

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I just learned the guitar just like I had my five chords and I had my James Taylor songs

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I could do them right and it was very relaxing to strum the guitar while I was studying

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And I showed my oldest son a few of my guitar chords and said, why don't you take my acoustic guitar?

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not really using it anymore. Now within a week

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: He was like downloading tabs from the internet and teaching himself guitar

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And by the age of 14 he played in his first band in some seedy dive in Heinle Street in Adelaide

[00:33:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And it has set him off for this lifelong passion for music

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Self-taught lead guitarist bass guitar drummer and all from my five chords

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And like he overtook me within a week and he would just set off on this fantastic passion

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is stuck with him and he still plays in a couple of different bands

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's so good. And that's what he wishes he could do

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_00]: For the rest of his life

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But he's also very smart and knows that it's pretty hard to be rich and be a rock star

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's always a thing that will be with him. Well, I mean to a risk of a tight

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a yeah, that is a healthy and that's a definite winner takes

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, you know this putting yourself on the stage in front of a crowd

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The first time especially terrifying. That's the thing we will get to this bit

[00:33:58] [SPEAKER_01]: In risk, you know in cave diving, that's a physical risk

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: There's something that could physically go wrong that results in you dying

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's not the only kind of risk

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No, of course there's social risk and there's you know

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: emotional risk and certainly putting yourself on stage is a

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_01]: A deep social risk because we're all scared of being humiliated in fact

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I am in my little podcast about risk taking. I interviewed my mate Peter Hellier

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Standup comedian and I and the the title of his

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Podcast was I almost died on stage

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And actually for me that would be far more terrifying than anything I do to be a stand-up comedian

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_00]: That's really scary stuff. Yeah, right

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's but what I do love about that story is and again as someone with younger kids

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You're lighting fuses and you just want one to take

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of the time the fuses wet or it sparks for a little bit then it sputters out or it blows up

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Or it blows up, but you go into the next few see like I just want one to kind of catch fire

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's a great so how was he fought?

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, how did you say it was when he was 14 when he played his first gig in town?

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And Fiona my wife said to me because we've been chatting, you know trying to find some good parenting stories for me to tell

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we took a while to think of what

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_00]: She said and we let him go into that nightclub

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We dropped him off with his gear and we picked him up at the end of the night

[00:35:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And he's in this club at night in the seedy side of Adelaide back then and

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that was pretty brave of us. That's great

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean going back to um early before you see like you're a big believer in letting kids

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know gradually take more risk play outside do that sort of thing. Can you elaborate a bit more on that and talk to that?

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: What does that look like to you?

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what would be some concrete examples in this day and age of what that could look like versus what kids do

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So kids need to work out

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: The limits of their

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Geographical and social boundaries and the sooner they start to do that. I think the safer they are in the long term

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But in the short term there's risks associated with that

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_00]: So for example, let them ride their bikes or take public transport to school

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_00]: At the earliest stage you deem it to be safe

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I had my greatest adventures on the way to school with my little gang on our bikes

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And got into the most mischief on the way home from school with my little gang on our bikes

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if anyone's done the study on this or if you've come across it because I was thinking about this exact thing this morning

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, why is it? I got a 10 year old

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Who isn't asking? How can I get out there on my bike? But we're also not pushing it

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean and that's something I really do want to change in the very near future

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just you know, the friends are disparate. There's not that much of a neighborhood gang

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So you're driving to do things you're driving to catch up like we go fishing of a Sunday

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of the closest we have of a neighborhood gang that goes fishing

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But we're still all going like all the dads are still turning up. We're not going to the boys

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, just make sure you're home by dark and bring bring us home a 12 centimeter

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Jacker

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's this thing where it's like it's on my mind a lot at the moment like when I was 10 years old

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I was burning around the neighborhood in Melbourne

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: On my bike and I had a paper. I was up at like 5 30 in the morning out of paper round and

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess it's that thing where I'm like, I'm disappointed in myself as a parent because I'm like

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like I've probably got the reins on way too tight without thinking about it

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't really know what that is. Yeah, well now that I've said what I think should happen

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you what we did and that was none of those things because I think

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll probably disagree on this Fiona and I but I think Fiona was more concerned than I was about the kids being on their bikes

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Because getting on a bike and trying to navigate to school is harder than it was when I was a kid. No question

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But we also sort of you know, there's that unspoken word about you know, stranger danger

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And what might happen to our children if we let them out of our sight?

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_00]: But statistically my understanding is

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Australia has never been safer in that regard, you know, there's cameras everywhere

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_00]: There's people watching an alert and aware around the schools and it actually comes down to risk because it's like with anything

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: You know with all those risk correlation factors something bad can happen

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're always acknowledged something bad can happen. We know if we drive in our car

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: People do have car accidents and we accept that risk

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I don't know what it is

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But I feel it's a like we're so much more exposed to the bad news stories of when risk

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: does

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Eventually that it maybe has led to this sort of fear that it's going to happen that it's definitely going to happen

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we have a skewed idea of what the risk is which kind of brings me to the next kind of social

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Statement about all of this stuff risk in our society at the moment

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_00]: A big part of it comes from what we're seeing on the tv because again cameras are everywhere

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So every night we see all the cars that were in on fire and adelaide last night who got stabbed

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's shop got broken into

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And also we're seeing it all on our social media, which the kids are

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Irreversibly immersed in and that seems to be coming up as the number one

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_00]: culprit in terms of all this social anxiety the

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Mental health epidemic in our kids

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know when we came home from school and we went outside and we kicked the footy in the street with the occasional car driving

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Past or we got on their bikes and went and saw our friends at their houses

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_00]: these days the kids are on their screens

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And being sometimes bullied

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Still while they're at home, you know, it's following them home

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Or they're reading about this terrible stuff around the world. They're seeing images of it

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the thing I look back on my childhood when I go most of the afternoons were full of

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Long stretches of boredom, which my theory is was essentially very healthy for a developing mind to be bored for a long time

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And to have to do something about it and just sometimes accept that

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: An afternoon was boring

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas unfortunately, I think that's definitely the dark side of smartphones. It's like it comes with this

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: inbuilt message that your life can you can never be bored anymore and we will distract you

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Forever if you need it, we'll just distract you

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then then it's time for bed

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But I guess what we're saying is like we know cultures change society has changed and a lot of this technology is not going anywhere

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the thing that people are realizing now is like it's an actual job to push back the tide of what has happened with

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: screens and technology

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's worth pushing back because what they've replaced is not it's not a like for like replacement

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_00]: No, and that's why it's even more important to be good

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Proactive parents to get your kids out and about and take them out and set a good example by doing so and look the holidays are the

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Perfect time to do that if you're taking your kids on a regular sunday fishing

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It's those little practical things that you do that establish a bond and

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And show them another skill like putting a worm on a hook and chucking it off the jetty and not catching anything, you know

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's that's life

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Um talking about you know kid risk is something that is is still interesting. So we're talking about going, okay

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We're happy for you guys to go in the world

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Take a few risks ride your bike. That's going to be skin knees. Maybe you know, maybe more

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Take accepting that there is the eventuality of the bad thing happening with any risk

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're actually coming off the back of a situation. That's not

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: That that is one of those situations. You you did a like a highly technical

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Um difficult deep dive and and there was a not the worst case scenario but a bad case scenario played out

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: How does living through that change your relationship to the activity? Um, not in any way at all because my

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Eyes were wide open before I I did that dive. Um, I you know understand the risks of what I'm doing

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: perfectly and I consider that I'm not a risk taker but a good risk manager and um

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That is what I want my kids to be they want I want them to not just you know

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Go out the door with a bottle of bourbon and jump in their car and and take some risks

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I want them to

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Look at the risks they're taking and go, you know what the benefit for me is definitely

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: greater than the

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: The risk or the potential cost

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if they go into an adventure sport or they go into a high risk occupation

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Or whatever they do that might be in some way dangerous other to their mental or their physical health

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I just want them to be informed about it and to be able to analyze the risks

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: So when they say should we have a one last drink at the pub and then drive home?

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: They'll be able to go, you know what that's not a good idea at all

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that risk. It's about risk management rather than yeah, there's plenty of risks in life

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't have to seek them out

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to get better at managing the ones you choose to take

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and some risks are worth it. No question. You take a risk on asking that person to marry you

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's one of the most terrifying things I've ever done. I'm about to commit myself for life to this person

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know I'm you know batting above my average, but there could be a better one

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But it seems unlikely so

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that we got a live analysis of the algorithm

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope this wasn't your proposal

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't say all that out loud as you propose it

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_00]: My proposal was actually dreadful and that's another one of my great regrets, but you can't go back

[00:43:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish you could you can only look forward and try and make up amends

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Um

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You've you've got your own personal pursuit, but you you have given a lot to the community

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You know through work with your medical work

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But also, you know the the Tycave rescue is the obvious big example

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But was that important to you to showcase that side of things as well to your kids that sense of of service and and of being

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully an asset to the smaller community or the broader community in the case of Thailand

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think so, um, you know to me the greatest heroes in any community other volunteers people who do something with no expectation of reward

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And um, I think my father was very much like that

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_00]: He was just someone that I really looked up to a lot in the way he conducted himself in the way he

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Engended friendships with people from all walks of life

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, he didn't seem to really judge anyone and I always aspire to be like that just to give everyone

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: A chance before you know, I just before I judge them and of course we're all guilty of judging people too quickly but

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, that's something that I really try to do is to get to know

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Someone before I decide if I you know what I think of them

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that and that idea of volunteering. Yeah, is that an important definitely

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, and I've been very selfish and

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Very busy up until the Thai cave rescue, but that has given me the

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_00]: opportunity or excuse or or

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Giving me pause for thought such that I've now doing some of that and working with a couple of couple of charitable

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Organizations to try and give something back

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and probably left that far too late in my life to be honest, but you know, late's better than never I guess

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, Fiona is now doing some volunteering as well. So we're trying to set that example and

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: Certainly we're trying to impress upon them the importance of those sort of qualities

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Going back to your going back to what you said before about, you know, your three your three words being just do it

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, were there times when you had to sort of see what was happening with your kids and and sort of and change tack or try something new or or or get

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, just acknowledge that the theory wasn't working. You've got to try something a different way

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_00]: You're always changing tact when the kids are not going down the path that you hope they will be or they're or they're

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Struggling with something

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just like a sheepdog. You're just constantly running around trying to steer them towards the gate

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But knowing they're gonna, you know, scratch along the barbed wire sometimes and um, there's nothing you can do and I think

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_00]: One thing I could say to people at the start of their parenting

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_00]: journey

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that don't feel guilty for your mistakes

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't think that you can turn this baby into a prime minister or an afl footy player or a matilda

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Or anything you think would be right for them because you have really no say in it, you know

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So so you're very much of the idea that the and I subscribe to this myself

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We like these little things come pretty heavily

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Pre-programmed. Yes, and we luckily are able to help kind of

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Highlight or you know or gently steer the edges, but they they are they are they comfortably I think you can set a good example

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_00]: You can keep them warm safe and sheltered. You can't keep them completely safe, but you can keep them as safe as you can

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think the best thing you can do for them

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And maybe this should have been my three word slogan is to very frequently say

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I love you and whatever they do whenever they cock stuff up just remind them

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what it doesn't really matter. You came last in that test. I mean, maybe not last next time would be good, but

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00]: In any case, I still love you and let's just see what happens tomorrow

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_01]: You know just and I think the beautiful part about that too is there's an element of and I could do with this

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes of just remembering it's it's not a big deal like very few things are a big deal

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_00]: No, it seems big on that day

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are many

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Emotional and and other challenges that will happen to them whilst they're in your care

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And you feel terrible for them. You wish you could intervene

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_00]: You wish you could sort out that social disaster that they've gotten themselves into

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_00]: But you can't you have to let them learn and grow from it

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's harrowing to watch it's heartbreaking to watch sometimes

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_00]: But you can't do it for them. Just keep them safe tell them you love them and hopefully they'll sort it out themselves

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_01]: You're someone that has won a bravery award or probably several

[00:47:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Only a few that I could see online

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What is your definition of bravery?

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Um having something that really frightened you and doing it anyway

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I don't consider myself brave for what we did in Thailand because there was really nothing about being in that cave

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_00]: That frightened me, you know, that's what we do for fun on the weekends

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And going into that cave was what I would be doing on another weekend anyway

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_00]: What I was proud of for myself was being able to make the decision to do what we did for those kids knowing that it was a very high risk

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00]: operation

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, I wasn't the one who was going to die. So it was the children who were going to die if that went wrong

[00:48:03] [SPEAKER_00]: So even that wasn't courageous on my part in that sense because I knew I'd be going home safely to my family

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was scary what we had to do for the kids to get them out

[00:48:15] [SPEAKER_00]: To take their life with their own hands

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But I see people who do stuff that absolutely petrifies them and they get on and do it anyway

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's real courage. So one of the thing one of the charities I work with is called operation flinders

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Which takes disadvantaged kids out into the bush

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And takes them for an eight day bush walk and it's pretty hard work

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And they get to do a lot of stuff that is very very challenging to them

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of these kids have never left the city. They're sleeping under the stars

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_00]: They might be doing abseiling and all these physical challenges, which for some of them is is horrific

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And when I see those kids overcome that, you know, they might have floods of tears and they're trembling

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And they let go that rope and let themselves slide down that cliff when they're abseiling, for example

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: That's bloody courageous. And that's what I really admire in people. I love that

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The my next part of that was what are simple ways or is is it more of just an awareness to go?

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay with your kids, you know, this is something that scares you and then this is what bravery is and and

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Highlighting to kids how

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Normal is to be scared and we're we all get scared. I get scared, you know, I talk to my kids all the time

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I try and make a big point about talking what I'm

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: About talking about my fears and insecurities are

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there any things that you do with your kids growing up where you were like, okay?

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's let's talk about being scared and let's kind of sit with the fear

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then see if we can do it anyway. Are there any things that stood out that?

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can't think of a specific example of that

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But what I can say is that I don't remember my parents ever having conversations like that with me when I was scared of about doing something

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but I'm definitely much more ready to talk to my kids about things that scare me in the past or or that still scare me

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_00]: and talk about how I manage my fear with them so that when they've got something that they have to do

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Like a job interview or

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_00]: You know a presentation or it's those sorts of things that used to frighten me to be honest

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You know public speaking for me was probably my number one

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Phobia and of course the last six years. I'm now

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You podcasting you're making you're making films. You're a yeah, so this has become part of my life

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's just through immersion

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But there was a massive fear I had to overcome and you know, it still makes me nervous

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_00]: But I can do it now. Do you think immersion is the path through fear? I do actually yeah

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know the old saying what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. There is absolutely some truth to that

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You don't want to die though. You don't want to die, but I again I face this

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm fascinated by this topic because it's very close to my heart at the moment with my little girl. Yeah

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:50:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I really want to help her with it

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I really want to be there with her to help her get through things that scare and she does and she does an amazing job

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm guilty of just like

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Packing way too much into each moment like I'm trying to do that sitting in fear. I'm trying to do the

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_01]: validating empathizing

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Celebrating but not too much, but you know

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_01]: so I know I'm probably just

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Guilty of like overloading those moments

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But I hope you know, it is that immersion that slowly

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Eventually like it just little bites little bites at the apple until they you know get the hang of it

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But the worst thing you can do is run from it and just decide that's not for me

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't do that and I won't do that because that builds that phobia

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's greases the wrong groove. Yeah, it does and that's I think what happened to me with this public speaking

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe you have one bad experience

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_00]: You stand up there and your mind goes blank and you know your stutter and nothing comes out

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And forever that becomes the bogeyman and so until you address that that will always be an issue so

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And and facing that fear that's real courage. I mean, that's where you need courage and you need support to to front up and have a go

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting because even hearing that I think about the sort of the things that maybe my

[00:51:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Kids have fears about in their life without going to specifics

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But I go puts the honest back on the parent a little bit to be aware of the things that

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: your kids might be facing

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: As we say, you know, there's no manual you got to

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Figure out yourself the best

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: tactic the best schedule to help walk alongside them

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you gotta have them through it. You gotta have the dialogue with them

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_00]: You got to have

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Time alone with each of them to make sure that that stuff has time to kind of

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Bubble up to the surface because if you just sit down for five minutes

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Then it's probably not going to come out

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you can actually spend quality time going on a bushwalk with them or

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Doing whatever that is that they enjoy doing

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Then sometimes those little things little hints will pop up and you can kind of

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Burrow down into them a little bit more

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: How much magical power do you put in the

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Simple activity of getting outside with your kids? Oh, it's massively important

[00:52:45] [SPEAKER_00]: More important when they were younger because now they've got their own lives

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, they don't necessarily want to go for a one-hour bushwalk with their dad

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's pretty boring when they can just go to a cafe and you know have some smashed avocado

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is why they'll never pay off their mortgages

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, but you know, it's um, so we're they're time poor now as well because they're now they're busy young adults

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So I can't expect them now that I'm starting to slow down from work and so forth to I can't expect them to drop everything to come

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And chat with the old man, but um, you know, we're time try and make proper time that that that is spent well

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I have vivid memories of a growing up in melbourne like suburban melbourne. I grew up on Placicle Glenmively

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a place called the Danny Nongs in melbourne. It's like a beautiful forest

[00:53:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably I don't know like 40 minutes 45 minutes from where we lived

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And occasionally on a weekend mom and dad would be like we're going for a bushwalk and we were like

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I will never make my kids do this like this

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like what is the point? We're walking in a loop back to the car

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it is funny because I look back and I go

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny because now i'm that parent like but trying to do it in a way that becomes part of the family rich

[00:54:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Or it becomes part of the fabric and there are other things that you say you're never going to do like

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: The kid asks you a question and you're never going to say because I told you so why because I told you say because you're just exhausted

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: You haven't got time for the explanation and all the implications of your reasoning or your argument

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, maybe you just don't want them to do it and you can't be bothered

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing I pulled out lately that i'm not proud of I have those moments. I'm like, oh, that's not good parenting

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I go no it is fine like where i'm negotiating with my daughter and she's like, okay

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What about this I'll do this now and I'll do this then and I'll I'll eat a roll up now

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Or whatever and it's like

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: 10 minutes till dinner and I'm like no

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_01]: She's like no no we're gonna do it this way and then sometimes I'll just be like hey because i'm the boss

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly you are the boss

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you're not the boss but there is because you know you want to be here

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And the cats are in the other room

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So i'm the boss today on the boss

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just that thing it was just like and I started saying that a little bit more

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And i'm like oh it's actually working because it kind of like reframes it

[00:54:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And it stops it then i'm like was this setting up a babbo and i'm like no i'm the boss

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And i've just called it and we're not negotiating anymore

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You're either a follower or a leader you can't be both

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was sometimes I really am a follower, especially when my daughter's involved

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_00]: She's just yeah, she's just she can no it can't always be a democracy. They have to be there's to be a general

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_00]: and they have to be some privates and

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And occasionally you get to be the general guess what guys i'm the guy handing out the epitets and I am the general

[00:55:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, do you have an example? This is something I enjoy

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And this could be anything but I love these stories an example from your

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: um

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Circle of people that you know that you've seen could be a big one a small one of gold standard

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Douting where you go. Okay. There's a there's a man

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That's being a beautiful dad look I have but nowadays

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I've been thinking about

[00:55:50] [SPEAKER_00]: What are the good dads I see around me and some of it is impossible to achieve because on the internet at the moment

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Well on the social media

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting to see these mums and dads

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Who are doing these incredible things with their kids like they'll pack up a backpack

[00:56:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And they'll take them into the mountains for three days

[00:56:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Man, I saw one the other day

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I well I I saw one where this family was hiking to Everest Base Camp with a seven and a 10 year old

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Which is like the ages of our kids and I across my mind and I was like what am I doing?

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm falling for the exact trap of social media. Well, they're turning their little perfect parenting

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_00]: videos into a

[00:56:27] [SPEAKER_00]: A way of torturing all regular parents because yeah the one I saw last was this woman who had a backpack the size of

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Mount Everest on she had everything in there. It must have been 30 kilos

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and they're having the time of their life and these beautiful lush spring meadows and the mountains and the running brooks and streams

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm calling bullshit on that. I mean, that's impossible

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_00]: No parents can be that good to spend that much fantastic time carrying a 30 kilo pack for their little toddler

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I was cross

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You promised us you promised us grumpy middle-aged man. Here I am. Um

[00:57:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean there's the beautiful part of that

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We were like, okay, we love the theory of that going away. But yes, we also know that the reality is just going to be meltdowns and

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to see celeste barba do a you know a meme of that one of those

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Just sitting in the back of the car eating two minute noodles

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and the kids

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And then giving their gameboys back to them

[00:57:23] [SPEAKER_01]: What I do kind of

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like or men this might be the wrong word in in a way of your story about god

[00:57:29] [SPEAKER_01]: standard dating

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose it's that thing to remember of going like there are the simple things like it's awesome to be at sports games and

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and to have dinner times and all that but

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, if if there's something underlying that then of course is the whole thing to unravel

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Those other things are important

[00:57:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But they're they're the bits of the iceberg we can see and if there's something underneath that's gone

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_01]: To your point that is gold standard dating the people

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_01]: That aren't doing the flashy stuff for instagram that aren't

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The the ones that are preaching to their friends going hey, just so you know, I'm

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm putting in 10 hours a day with the kids

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Because there's a there's a layer underneath that that's more important to take care of that you are that's creating the solid foundation

[00:58:10] [SPEAKER_01]: For your family

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean kids can smell BS a mile away

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you just got to be your best genuine self and you know make the time that you're with them

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_00]: The best time it can be and recognize that sometimes you're too

[00:58:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Tired for that and you've just got to stare at the tv screen and veg out this popped into my head

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know for me, you know, this is a gold standard dating. I saw the other day. I

[00:58:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't do this very often at all. This gives a wrong

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I should but I guess gives a false impression of me looking like I'm a great guy

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but I was at the royal children's in sydney the sydney children's hospital and

[00:58:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like a thing with lego and we're giving out lego sets and it was that was all lovely

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a as you would know from being in those hospitals like the kids are in there that are that have got serious

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Illnesses and stuff like it's so scary for the families. It's so scary for the kids

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But the families understand the gravity maybe the situation they're trying to keep that from the kids

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The dad I chatted to

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd listened to this podcast. He'll know who he is when he hears this

[00:59:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was like, this is gold standarding. We came into we're going from room to room. We come to the board

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He's in there and his little girl is got her IV dripping and

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So much of the day seems to be waiting to like people waiting

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_01]: For six hours for a scan this afternoon and the kids can't eat anything and they're just climbing the walls

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're these poor kids are confused and sick and just long days in the children's hospital

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I came into this room and this dad and I could sort of hear something happen before I came in and he

[00:59:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Came in and they were walking around the room and she was giggling

[00:59:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And he she just had a stuff rabbit and he'd been hiding it around the room

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_01]: For hours and they just been playing hide-and-seek and he was just doing that to distract her while she waited to go and get a scan

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like that makes me cry a little bit because I'm like that

[01:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's gold standard to me because he's holding back

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, all his fears hiding his emotion by distracting both of them really and pretending everything's normal

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't imagine being more scared. No than he would be

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think having a sick child

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Is one of the worst possible things that can ever happen as a parent. You know, we've been very lucky

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_00]: We just had one my daughter actually had asthma when she was a kid and on one occasion

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: My daughter was in the children's hospital and they'd laid for about three nights with asthma

[01:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I had to sleep on this little stretcher bed under the pretty much

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: You know beside and half under her bed and I then go off to work each day

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_00]: You know work my 12 hours and then come back and sleep in the hospital again

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But that that opportunity to sort of spend time with her and be caring for her and to be able to share that

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Very scary few days with her was incredibly strong for both of us, I think

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I will never forget that that parenting time, you know worrying and

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Protecting my little girl in hospital like that. It was um, it's interesting

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah

[01:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually was in the hospital for the exactly the same reason when I was a kid

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I reckon it was four asthma two or three nights and I still remember dad sleeping on the bed. Yeah, and

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: and

[01:01:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the fact that I remember it obviously it had an effect and I'm and he did too

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I he was talking about it when it was, you know much older

[01:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you think it's because we all know we'd do anything for our kids?

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But those are the times when you're actually called up for active duty and you really do need to be there

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely and look for all my talk about being selfish going off on my trips and expeditions and things which is which is true

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I know in my heart the moment there was an issue like that

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That would just be forgotten in a heartbeat and you'd just do whatever is required for your family for all your family

[01:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and that's what being a good dad is I think and you can kind of fluff around the rest

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's the bottom line. Um, you're just there for him

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's I think that's pretty succinctly put and that's that's beautiful. Thanks, Harry

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey, mish is glad that he talked to another dad now. He's gonna say some other stuff, but he will be by himself

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: As you know, I've been lucky enough to meet people that have done

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Extraordinary things in their life and I think what I'm always struck by is how

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They're they're often just a very humble unassuming kind of people

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think he just says a lot a lot about him

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I you know, you notice that Harry is very keen to deflect a lot of the praise to the people that are around him

[01:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that is a mark of a man. So

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you to Harry. I really I love talking to him about

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that I loved being a good risk manager not a risk taker and

[01:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's something that I'm very keen to help my kids with

[01:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Managing risks and we do it. We talk about it with some success. I would say we don't

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm I'm keen to not insulate them totally from risk

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But I certainly feel like I'm a I'm an amateur when it comes to

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Successfully teaching them how to manage a risk, but that that's that's what it's all about

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he spoke really well about, you know, you can't pretend that the risks don't exist

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So we might as well learn how to dance with it responsibly

[01:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, really I think some really universal lessons that I think we can take from what he does in his

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Pre-specialized field and how we can benefit from them. So thank you very much Harry

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know we kind of say this a lot, but it really does come back to the fundamentals

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I say this more for myself than anything else

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I do this show. I love this topic and I could just probably do this endlessly every day have these conversations

[01:03:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Even though it kind of quite often comes back to the same fundamentals. I think

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lesson in that

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Love your kids be there for them

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_01]: See them for who they are and not who you want them to be

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm sorry. That's just my wife sending me an email right at that pivotal moment

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But that's if you heard that ding, but that's okay. That's we're all just putting podcasts together in the back room

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_01]: But I I do I do think that that's what it is see them for who they are

[01:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: not who you want them to be and

[01:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Meet them at their level and when you get it right. It's so rewarding

[01:04:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I get it wrong a lot

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I have to reassess and go back into it and I guess that's just what it is. It takes daily practice

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you again to harry for coming across

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Can't believe he still couldn't feel his feet so he probably should have been in hospital, but

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: He did it for you guys and

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: We have to give him and he's got enough awards

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But i'm happy to give him also bravest guest gold standard guest on the show

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: To add to the trophy cabinet. Thank you very much harry. We'll see you next time everyone

[01:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: How are the dad's dad is produced by myself and my mate tim Bartley

[01:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: The theme song is thanks to the incredibly talented tom cardy

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: You can find him drenched throughout the internet

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We recorded this episode on the lands of the warung jury and

[01:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: People of the cool and nation and we pay our respects to their culture of storytelling that survived for thousands of years

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want to say hi head to our website how are the dad's dad dot com, but most of all thank you for listening

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