How Nathan Fa’avae Dads - Creating the ultimate team… your family!

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Hello everyone, as you're about to hear this is a pretty adventure-y based episode and you know what? That is the perfect, perfect in to talk about our sponsor Hertz. Hertz, just believers in adventures. I mean if you're going somewhere and you need a car, boom, that's where Hertz will be. We recorded this in New Zealand, which just in itself is a pretty adventure-y country. Very smooth manoeuvre from us. Landed, walked out to the car, just picked up the keys, piece of cake with the Hertz people.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_05]: And I didn't even have the poster to point to, which I go, hey, I'm the Hertz guy, because I'm not in New Zealand. But it still worked just fine. So thanks Hertz, let's get on to the show.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Hamish is a dad who loves to be a dad, but he knows there's more to learn about being a dad. So he made this show where he talks to other dads so he can find out how other dads dad.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: How other dads dad.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_05]: This episode of how other dads dad is a special one, another one that Tim and I went to New Zealand for part of our little New Zealand adventure.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Today's guest is not someone that you would immediately know, perhaps.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, like some people might, but just generally speaking, his name is Nathan Fave and he is pretty much unrivaled in the world of adventure sport racing.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_05]: And adventure sport racing is not one of the mainstream sports in the world, but some people might be familiar with the Eco Challenge or World's Toughest Race, which was on Amazon.

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_05]: It was a show that was made during COVID. I saw it and loved it.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Nathan is the New Zealand team captain.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, they spoiler alert, but you know, this was four years ago.

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_05]: They won that particular race, but he has won seven world championships with New Zealand adventure racing all around the world.

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Adventure racing is in a nutshell, bloody difficult.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_05]: It's just you versus terrain teams of four usually across many days, hundreds, sometimes thousands of kilometers and you have to navigate and self support yourself and carry your own stuff.

[00:02:08] [SPEAKER_05]: So, you know, it's kayaking, it's running, it's mountain biking.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_05]: It's basically just being extremely resilient in the outdoors.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And obviously Nathan's extremely good at it.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_05]: This is not an episode where I was like, oh, I'm friends with this person.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_05]: I would love to have a deeper conversation with him about fathering.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_05]: I just became aware of Nathan through that world.

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_05]: I have a bit of an interest in that kind of thing.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_05]: And the more I sort of saw bits and pieces of Nathan, the more I was like, this man seems to be extraordinarily impressive.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_05]: And I would love the chance to sit down with him.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_05]: He was very kind in granting us that wish.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So flew in while we were in Wellington, flew in early one morning, sat down with Tim and I, and boy, were we not disappointed.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And I do not think he will be.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_05]: He's such a legend of a bloke, such a, as you're about to hear, kind, but adventurous and thoughtful.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Just a remarkable mix of someone that's extremely gritty, obviously the world's best at grittiness, but also mixed with humility and compassion.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_05]: And I love this conversation so much and I hope you do too.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_05]: So I'll stop rambling so you can enjoy how Nathan Fave dads.

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Mate, thank you so much for being here.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for inviting me along.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully I've got something interesting to share.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm happy to wrap it up in five minutes.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_05]: No, no, no, no.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm pretty sure you do.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Even us just chatting before this started, like, you're a man that has many adventures under his belt.

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Is that a fair thing to say as a professional adventure racer?

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that would be something I couldn't deny.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_05]: But, but on top of that, the thing that, you know, that I'd be interested in getting into today is the role that, you know, that fatherhood plays against that life.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_05]: And, and your role as a dad and as a partner and, and, you know, the philosophies you use raising your kids and embedding in them perhaps some of the same spirit.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_05]: Before we begin, what are your dad's statistics?

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Like how many kids do you have?

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have three children, my wife and I.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: My youngest child is my daughter Tide, who is 18, who is currently finishing her final year at school.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So in theory, she should be at school right now.

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you pretty sure she is?

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty sure she's possibly there.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a son who is 19, soon to be 20.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: His name is Zephyr.

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And right now, depending on the time zone, he is in Billund in Denmark at Legoland.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_05]: Is he really?

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:04:46] [SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He's there for a few days.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_05]: As a tourist or as a?

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: As a, as a, as a Lego enthusiast.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_01]: As a, as a obsessive Lego enthusiast.

[00:04:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's great.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: He's warned his girlfriend that he's going to need a lot of time there.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, can I just say, I mean, sorry to jump in.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Having been to Billund myself and Legoland, you're better off spending as much time as

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_05]: you can at Legoland because there's nothing else in Billund.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Like that town, that town only exists for Legos.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_05]: So if he's like, oh, let's leave a day to check out all the cool restaurants in Billund.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_05]: I'd say take another day at Legoland.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He'll happily do that.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But I have said to him that just up the road in Silkyborg, there's some quite fun adventure

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_01]: activities to do if he wants to dip his toe in the water with some canoeing or, or something

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: else.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like I could name any place in the world and you'd go, oh yeah, yeah, there's

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_05]: some good rock climbing near there.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully I'd better give you some, some tips.

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I've got another daughter, Jessie, who is 21 right now, soon to be 22.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And she is currently on a long haul flight returning from Europe back to New Zealand.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So she'll be back here in New Zealand tomorrow.

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Okay, beautiful.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, so it's quite quick succession to the kids, like they're quite close in age.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they are.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_01]: My wife's pretty organized with most things in her life and I believe they're about 18

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: months apart.

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just sort of did what I was told basically.

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_05]: All those years ago.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_05]: So where we, we often like to start on this podcast is if it, if it comes to mind, the,

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_05]: you know, the three words you would use to describe perhaps, you know, if you could, the, the three

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_05]: legs of the stool of your fathering philosophy, what would they be for you?

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I, I have thought about that a little bit.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, I guess I would restrictively be looking back on my fathering and finding out three

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: words that would perhaps represent that period as opposed to having things front of mind

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: during those years.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's more of a looking, yeah, looking back and categorizing it.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But I would like to start off by, um, saying that, you know, if I was to rank myself on

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: performance of a father, I would give myself probably an eight out of 10.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm, I'm certainly not here, um, claiming to be a 10 out of 10 and I would measure myself

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and I'd encourage other fathers to do this.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, not so much on your performance or your output, but more on your effort.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that, um, you know, I think I, I, I've, I've given it a pretty honest effort,

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: but I think if I was to be completely honest and sort of look back on it, I, I reckon I could

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: have given more.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but I, I think it's what's really important is to focus on the effort is, is that I know

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: some dads who don't actually have the opportunity to spend much time with their kids because they're,

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_01]: they're split up or they just required to work a long, long hours away from home.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's really important that, um, that's the effort that's important to not necessarily,

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: um, you know, what your output is.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Extremely well put.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_05]: When you have the opportunity in that window, what's the effort?

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and I also think too, that you're never really going to know the, the,

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_01]: the real output because your kids have got long lives to live.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I could, I could sort of look at where my kids are now and go, Hey, there's some

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_01]: really cool things happening and some really good stuff.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But you know, that, that may change in 10 or 20 years.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I might be going, Oh my God, look at what they're doing now.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That's horrific.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_05]: So we'll do a check-in episode.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, but I do like, I do, I think about that all the time, that idea of like, you know,

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_05]: because of course we, there's no certainties as he's saying, like, there's just no guarantees.

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't know how it's going to turn out.

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_05]: We don't know if what we're doing today is going to have the positive ripple effect.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We hope it will.

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_05]: But then we also know from our own lives, when you think back to your own childhood

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_05]: and you think of some of the formative stuff, it would, it's always comes as a surprise.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_05]: Like even when I talk to my mum and dad about stuff that I remember as being really formative,

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_05]: they're there going, Oh my God, I had no idea that was a big deal for you.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, I don't ever remember saying that.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_05]: And so you're like, you don't know what is going to land.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Totally.

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_05]: But, but there's no big, because we don't have any certainty.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_05]: That's no reason not to put the effort in.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_05]: It's sort of, again, that idea was like, it's twice the reason to put the effort in

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_05]: because you're playing a numbers game now.

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Like you just have to put it all in there and hope that something, something hits.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think too, that kids, especially when they grow into adults,

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_01]: they can see that you're putting in the effort in, you know, and they might be like,

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, dad's not that good, but hey, unless he's trying.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, whatever it is.

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_05]: So I really agree because I think everyone that sits in these chairs,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_05]: no, none of it, no one's a 10 out of 10.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_05]: No one's given themselves a 10 out of 10.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_05]: But I'd love that idea of going, but we can, we can assess ourselves on,

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_05]: on honest effort.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_05]: In that spirit, what, what are your three?

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think.

[00:09:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Is effort one of them?

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh no, I think that just is a more of an over encompassing thing.

[00:09:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So if I think back, I mean, my wife and I collaborate a lot on, you know,

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_01]: how we want to parent as a, as a couple.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But certainly myself, the things that would be important to me.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think one of the big things has been freedom.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And right from a young age, right from our kids, we were basically born really,

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: is it was important to me to give them as much freedom as was practically possible.

[00:10:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason for that, or my reasoning for that was to build them up to be independent

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_01]: people and be able to make sensible, independent decisions.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And to have the ability to explore and try things and take risks and essentially not have limitations

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of on them for lots of reasons.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And that is something I think we did really well.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I think as a dad, I've done really well.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I know it's something that again, really generalizing, but for a lot of people listening

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_05]: that perhaps live a pretty urban or suburban lifestyle, I do think there's a hunger.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_05]: I detect certainly in my friendship group of people that are like, I'd love to give my kid

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_05]: more freedom.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm not really sure how to do it.

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, there's always, it always comes with like nervousness about their safety and what,

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_05]: you know, a bunch of what ifs.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_05]: What, what are some of the things you did that allowed the kids to have that freedom?

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Like what, what did it look like practically at different ages?

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think, I think a lot of time was just more empowering them with information.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So I remember many years ago when they were quite young, they were possibly one, three

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and five or something like that around those ages.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And for the listeners who don't actually know me or know what I've done, I've, I've been

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: a professional athlete for a period of my life.

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And one of the great things about being a professional athlete was that I could be around a lot for

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_01]: the kids at certain times.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I'll be, I'll disappear.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll be in the jungles of the Amazon, literally the Amazon for, for a while.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I'll emerge back.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But when I was back, I was back and I could spend time with the kids at any time of the day.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was at a playground one day and it'd been raining and the weather had cleared, but

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: there was big puddles of water everywhere.

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I saw that my kids, like all kids, you know, the, the seesaw and the, the whale and the kind

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: of swinging lions, not of interest.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: These puddles are way more interesting than all these toys and colorful things.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're naturally drawn to the puddles.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And so my style of parenting, and this is not original.

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Other parents do this as well, but what was important to me.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So in that instance, well I did, and this actually happened as I gathered the kids around and

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I said, Hey, look guys, uh, this is the situation where in the city for the day, I don't have

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_01]: any spare clothes for you guys.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can play in the puddle, but if you get saturated, you're going to be wet for the

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: rest of the day.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's up to you.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, it was empowering them information so they can make that decision.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And they go, yeah, it's worth it.

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's worth getting wet and being wet for the rest of the day.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I basically say, well, okay, well, yeah, that's up to you.

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll go and sit back down and then go for it.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But then I also noticed that, um, most of the other kids that were going near the puddles,

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: their parents were basically screaming at them to get out of the puddle.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, my kids are in there basically splashing around having a great time.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And other kids are being told, you're not allowed to be in there.

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And on that same day, there was lots of kids running around.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't believe how many parents were yelling at their kids not to run.

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just like, don't run, don't run.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Johnny, stop running.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I'm like, isn't running a good thing?

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and what is actually the real risk here?

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, sure they trip over and get a graze or something, but they're in the playground.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: They're not running amongst high speed traffic.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was just a really interesting thing for me, but as an example of-

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_05]: But it stuck from that.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_05]: That's where you first started to notice, okay, maybe I'm doing things a little differently

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_05]: perhaps than some other parents.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And it made me question, why are they like that?

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what is actually the real issue here?

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I realized that they're not actually protecting the kids, I don't think.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: They're actually protecting themselves.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it comes from fear for sure.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's more, I think for some people, it's just energy and logistics.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's come on.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't want wet kids.

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I think I was going to say.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_05]: And there's definitely that element.

[00:13:55] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm probably being guilty of that too myself.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Just all that thing of going, you know, if I think back to my kids at a similar age,

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I can imagine going, all right, guys, here's the deal.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_05]: You can play in the puddle, but you'll be wet.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_05]: And then them taking the deal in the moment, taking the upside, which is we get to be in

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_05]: the puddle, but then really complaining heavily about the downside afterwards.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Because you're like, I know this will now be four hours of going, but this was the deal,

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_05]: which is admirable that you're willing to take that cost to go, even if they complain,

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_05]: I know I'm going to perhaps spend the rest of the day explaining to them that you took

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_05]: the deal.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_05]: That's the other part of it, isn't it?

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It is.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_05]: Facing the consequences, like when they're little.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Absolutely.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Kids have a real tendency, which I battle with all the time when I try and, I try and probably,

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel like I try and sort of find myself in similar situations.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_05]: But one thing I really struggle with is my kids seem to have a difficult time comprehending

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_05]: the downside that inevitably comes, the cost.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_05]: They're very happy to take the benefit.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Then explaining the cost afterwards.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_05]: Totally.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Especially when the cost comes after the benefit.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes, yes.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_05]: And they say, oh no, no, no.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_05]: Now the benefit's gone.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_05]: We're not interested in the cost anymore.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[00:15:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think to that point, which is a good point, what worked for us was just complete

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_01]: consistency.

[00:15:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And my wife and I both were Outward Bound instructors.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And at Outward Bound you may or may not know, but essentially the philosophy of Outward

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Bound is essentially experiential learning model.

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, go and have the experience and then see what you can learn from it.

[00:15:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we adopted that in our parenting.

[00:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you apply that model, it is essentially about empowering the kids to go, right, this

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: is the information you need.

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It's up to you what you want to do.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's up to you what you want to do.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You're your own human being.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But we have to be consistent.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you're right in the early days or some of the times it would backfire.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it wouldn't backfire.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: What you'd expect would happen would happen.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's an hour later, the kids are cold and wet and they're going, we're cold and wet and

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: we're not happy.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we had to be, well, let's just go back to a conversation we had earlier in the

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: playground.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: This is what we discussed.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You chose this and now this is what's happening.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And our kids learned real quick.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_05]: That's so, again, very admirable and the consistency is probably the absolute key to it.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was never, you can't do this.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, often my language would be, I wouldn't do that if I was you.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's up to you.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, good luck.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_05]: In terms of just taking like, you know, physical risks and-

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Could be anything.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Could be, we could be out camping and you know, my son's playing with the fire and I look

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: at him and going, what he's doing right now is borderline dangerous, but it's not life

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: threatening.

[00:16:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a hazard there that probably he needs to be aware of.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say to him, don't play with the fire.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So I might go over and say, hey, look, what you're doing is risky for these reasons.

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Keep doing it if you want.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I wouldn't.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_01]: That's up to you.

[00:16:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And then if he burns himself, it's kind of like, well, you can have that discussion.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So what happened?

[00:17:00] [SPEAKER_01]: How did that, you know, what, how was that different from what, what we talked about?

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_01]: He's going, well, you know, funny, funny enough.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It was what you see it.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_05]: I know it's one of the all time tropes, but the burning yourself and never doing it again

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_05]: is just, I mean, when it happened to myself, we were camping and he held the end of it

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_05]: like he had a stick in the fire, had a stick in the fire and it gone white.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Right.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And so didn't explain to him, I'll think this is still be white hot.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_05]: And, or, you know, freshly burned and he just touched the end of the stick, you know, it's

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_05]: amazing.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And I'm not, I'm not saying we should all go and burn our kids, but I mean, it's one of

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_05]: the old, it's one of the old lessons for a reason.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Sure.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_05]: It never happens again.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, essentially what the philosophy behind it is, well, maybe the philosophy is not even

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the right word, but my thinking behind it was, is that, yeah, as a, as a father that, you

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_01]: know, right from the young age with my, my children was to expose them to as much risk

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_01]: as I possibly could without it being careless.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_05]: So there's a point.

[00:18:02] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so interesting.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Cause I think people will hear that and be like, I want to do that.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Like we know that modern society is becoming way more risk averse and, and, you know,

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_05]: everything's bubble wrapped and helicopter parenting.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_05]: And I reckon there's a huge desire for people to be like, I would definitely want to expose

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_05]: my kids to risk, but I'm scared.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_05]: And, and it's a hard thing for people to do to know where that line is, as you put

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_05]: it so well between a healthy risk and carelessness.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_05]: How do you find it?

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Or how would you advise someone that's like a young parent to go about perhaps putting

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_05]: a little bit more of that into their kid's life if they wanted to?

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I think the situations come down to your ability to essentially manage or rescue

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: the scenario, the situation.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, you know, my wife and I raised our kids largely in the outdoors.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_01]: That's where we taught a lot of the stuff they know, the basic sort of values and morals

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and resilience and courage and various things.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So for us, that environment, we were very comfortable in that environment.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And we knew that if we exposed them to risk in that environment, we could, we knew what

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: our ability to rescue things would be or recover a situation.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think parents need to stay within their, their ability to manage a situation.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And because I think, yes, for you both being outward, you know, outdoor educators,

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_05]: our band instructors, adventure racing enthusiasts and professionals, the outdoors is your comfort

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_05]: zone in a sense.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_05]: Whereas for a lot of people, it would be outside their comfort zone.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_05]: So the idea of going, have the kids in an area where you feel super competent and then

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_05]: within that, it allows you to let them take more risks in that area.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe to put it in an example where people could sort of measure it a bit more as I think,

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: you take your kids to the beach and, you know, there's, there's hazards around water.

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_01]: If they can't swim or whatever it is, and especially if they're small.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think that that's probably an area where you think you, a good example of what is your

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of risk tolerance.

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, you know, back when my kids were young, I was a fast runner.

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I was agile.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I could run on sand.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I could swim.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew CPR.

[00:20:13] [SPEAKER_01]: They are.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me sitting at the beach monitoring my kids, I could give them a lot of rope.

[00:20:18] Yeah.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they could be 1,200 metres away from me and I'm comfortable because I'm assessing

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: the risk and going right now, I can recover the situation.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If something happens to one of my children, I can recover this.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've got this.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But there'll be a point where they move out of that.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I go, right, okay.

[00:20:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Now they're too far away.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Or now there's another risk has moved into the, you know, I'm constantly doing that risk

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: assessment.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's really important that parents stay within that.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So for me, it might've been 200 metres.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Another parent might be 100 metres.

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Another parent might be 50 metres.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't matter.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's more about allowing your kids to have that experimentation, the freedom,

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: which is, I guess, the word that I'm sort of highlighting.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's also probably a little bit more about, you know, the freedom is also about responsibility

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: transfer.

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's more about just educating the kids to saying, right, here we are at the beach.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: These are the hazards that I can see.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You go and play, but it's on you, actually.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: You choose how this is going to sort of, and I'm just going to be here as a supervisor.

[00:21:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And as they get older, obviously you're, you know, you're adjusting and adapting that

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_05]: as they grow up.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Totally.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Did you find that had a big impact on their self-confidence and their self-esteem?

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think so.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I think they all grew up or have grown up knowing that, yeah, there's, there's,

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: there is a sort of a consequence to all actions, whatever it might be.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, and I think in terms of what they learned from that about their, that their individual

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: characters, their individual humans, you know, they, they, they probably have, I think they've

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: got confidence to go and, well, they have, I look at what they're doing.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: They've got a lot, they have got a lot of confidence to go and try different things.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they, they've got, I'm sure they've got sort of some fears and concerns and about

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: some things, but, but by and large, I think it was a good, a good model.

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, honestly, you have to ask them.

[00:22:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_05]: But I mean, I'd take your call on it too.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll take your judgment.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_05]: But do you on just on that, on a last note, because I think a lot of this too is about,

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_05]: especially with little kids, it is about confidence building.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_05]: How would, how would you build confidence in a kid?

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_05]: If you were given a young kid that kind of lacked a bit of confidence, if you like, let's

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_05]: say, you know, and you're instructing them, what would you, what are some of the things

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_05]: you'd do to kind of build up confidence in, let's say like a, I don't know, 12 year old?

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I think if you're sort of trying to build up, you know, seeing esteem and essentially

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: self-confidence, probably the simplest way that I know or have had experience with working

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: with people in the outdoors is people do gain confidence from doing the thing they couldn't

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: do.

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's largely around, I guess if you bring that into a child or a young adult, it's about

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: finding out from them what it is that they would like to do, but for whatever reason,

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: there's sort of barriers around it.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's fears or phobias or just, they're just lacking the confidence to even

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_01]: try it or do it.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's about identifying those things and then supporting them through it.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So going, well, okay, this is the thing you want to do.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And then it's really going and doing it, you know, with some tools and support and then

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: essentially going, well, that was nowhere near as bad as I thought it was going to be.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it's a real simple one.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think it's about just finding out what that might be.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And it could just be a conversation with your child saying, oh, I've noticed you haven't

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_01]: been on the giraffe.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Why is that?

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, it's a bit high or something.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Would you like to climb the giraffe?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd like to.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, should we go and have a go?

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you need?

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, you just go through some natural progressions and just take your time

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and using that example, you know, once that kid has basically conquered the giraffe, then

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: they'll essentially gain some confidence and esteem from that.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And just learn that pathway.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that a lot.

[00:24:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, essentially what you're doing is, you know, in order to give your kids that

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_01]: true freedom, there is, you do have to basically have risks.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_05]: And not in the stomach if you're time to tell them.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I reckon.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_05]: All right.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Freedom.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Sorry.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Word number one.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_05]: What's word number two?

[00:24:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So the second word I'll use is teamwork.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You could probably narrow it down to team.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I love that.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think, again, Jodie, my wife and I came from working as outdoor instructors.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And a big part of that is, we're also, we actually worked as outdoor educators in a

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: number of different fields, out at venture tourism and secondary schools and various other

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: things.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But essentially a big part of what we've done for our sort of professional careers when we

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: were actually working in that space was essentially team building.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And we sort of took that approach into our family as well, that we are creating, you

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: know, the ultimate team.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_05]: That's such a great, I love that.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's been awesome.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, we are a team of five and I guess the reason why we did that was

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: because we wanted to, you know, all of the team members to feel a strong connection to

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: the team and know that there's a team that's got their back, you know, forever.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a safe place.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_01]: These people are, you know, they're essentially non-judgmental.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They love you.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They're there for you.

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_01]: All those great things about being in a team.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we knew what the end goal was that we wanted.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we just had to figure out how do we sort of engineer that.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_05]: That's really interesting.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And what, what things did you learn along the way?

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Like what works as team?

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Like, you know, if it, I know it's a very, very broad question.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Like a million books on teamwork and you can go and do like 10 year courses on how to

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_05]: build teams, but what things worked if you, if it is easy to synthesize into a few things

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_05]: to build a team?

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's kind of said that, you know, true friends are either made from knowing someone

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: for a long period of time or from having shared intense experiences.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're like, well, we can do both here because we're going to know each other for a long time.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So all we need to do is add in the intense experiences.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So, so we just started doing epic, epic things.

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and I guess why I say that, cause I'm also mindful that not everyone who listens

[00:26:39] [SPEAKER_01]: to this podcast can do what we do did because we were professional outdoor instructors.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a very specific skill set.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And I also happened to be the world champion several times over.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But my point to that is, is that, or not my point, but what I'll add to that is, is that

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I think all parents should just play to their strengths.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So whatever it is.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I agree.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, I hear this and I'm like, well, and knowing you as I do, and I know you're extremely

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_05]: humble about your achievements, but it was like, I don't think you want to get confused

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_05]: with going, you must take kids on things that require like high skill level outdoor stuff.

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_05]: But more the point of like everyone has something relative to their life that would be an epic

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_05]: adventure.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Totally.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_05]: That we're all capable of, and it will look different for every family.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yep.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And in terms of building a team, you know, in terms of parents playing to their strengths,

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it doesn't matter what industry you work in or what your profession is or what you do.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: There'll be something that you're passionate and good at.

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And that essentially will most likely be the vehicle where you teach those things.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So for us, that was just our, you know, that we wanted.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think-

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_05]: It was the outdoors.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_05]: Now I know that let's say like, you know, if you're a violin player, then, you know, taking

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_05]: your kid on tour would be awesome.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's an epic adventure.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_05]: So acknowledging that it will be different for everyone.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_05]: I am interested to know what you did with your kids.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Like what were some of the epic things that you did with your kids as I grow up?

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you know, I guess I just sort of back the track up a tiny little bit is

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_01]: that I wouldn't consider myself a particularly spiritual person, but I'm interested in some

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_01]: spiritual philosophies.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was one thing that before Jodie and I had children was we, we like this concept

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that the children choose their parents.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we had this kind of, just sort of this vision that, you know, the kids essentially

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_01]: are spirits or whatever, are cruising around up there in the clouds.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they basically look down and they go, yeah, I want to go and live with those

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: people.

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They look cool.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So we kind of thought, yeah, the kids are going to go and find us.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I don't actually deep down believe that it's true, but I like-

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I like the concept.

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: As a thought experiment, it's a beautiful place to start.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So what we identified, and this was actually from observing some other parents that had children

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: before us is, is that the kids are choosing us because they're looking at our lifestyle

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that we've got now and what we do.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they want to be part of.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, what we had noticed with a few people was, is that they had children and completely

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: changed their lifestyle.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And for us, we couldn't help but think, man, those kids are going to be feeling pretty ripped

[00:29:07] [SPEAKER_01]: off because that's not what they signed up for.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it's just parents just trying to do their best.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: But they were often these cases, we had noticed them because they were kind of struggling.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And we couldn't help but think, and this is only observation that could have been well,

[00:29:21] [SPEAKER_01]: could be well wrong, but it's kind of like, I think you need to just kind of not change anything.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, because I think a lot of people really panic about being perfect parents

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: and sort of reading parenting books and saying, oh, you know, kids need this and this and that.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's kind of like, well, they need sort of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but they don't

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: necessarily need all this other stuff.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So keep it simple and just play to your strengths.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_05]: And the idea of being the best, you know, best version of you you can be for your kids,

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_05]: like being the most you version of you to show your kids who you are.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally, totally.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's most genuine and that's what it is.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, for us, it was, well, what we do is outdoor adventures.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're like, well, when our kids turn up, as soon as they're capable, we'll go and

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_01]: start doing some outdoor adventures.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we did.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, from quite a young age, you know, we were just out doing just really legitimate trips.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when I look back on it now, it's kind of crazy.

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I don't know what we were thinking, to be honest.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Give me some crazy ones.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, when the kids were quite young, we decided we'd go and kayak around the Whitsunday Islands

[00:30:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and Hook Island and Whitsundays, I think.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We did about 150 KC kayaking trip.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_05]: How old were they?

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I think they were probably like four, six and eight or something.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_05]: And the four-year-old was paddling?

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_01]: None of the kids were paddling.

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: They were all on a kayak with me.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Just passengers?

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we were just basically on this big mission.

[00:30:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And we contacted a sea kayak company in Ely Beach, I think it was, and they wouldn't

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: rent us kayaks because we didn't want to go on a guided trip.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of said, look, we've both been sea kayak guides.

[00:30:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We just want to take our kids paddling.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They're like, no, we won't rent boats.

[00:30:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So we took the boats from New Zealand.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We took our own and did the trip.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We took inflatable boats.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But we just cruised around on the islands, just camping and doing things and swimming

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_01]: with turtles and sharks and had a whale swim under our boat.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: We did this crazy trip one year to New Caledonia.

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Kids were a similar age.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We looked at a map.

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We brought tickets to New Caledonia.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: We weren't sure what we were going to do.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we looked at the map and we saw this section of New Caledonia coastline.

[00:31:20] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no village.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, there's no roads.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And we thought, that looks interesting.

[00:31:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we should do a kayaking trip up that because it looks, there's no roads there.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Just villages.

[00:31:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So we went over there and we knew very little about it.

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We learned later that it's called the Forgotten Coast.

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And we spent a couple of weeks just basically paddling that coast.

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And just free camping or camping at villages and just out there, just the five of us having

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: this intense experience of just, we don't know where we can get water.

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know if these villages are going to welcome us.

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just going to find this out.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We did lots and lots of tramping or hiking trips in New Zealand.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And we did some really big trips like seven, eight, nine, 10 day trips with the kids

[00:32:08] [SPEAKER_01]: into really rugged areas like not, you know, when my probably, my youngest daughter was

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: probably four probably when we were doing.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: You were doing a 10 day trip?

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, 100 kilometer trips into the wilderness type sort of stuff.

[00:32:23] [SPEAKER_05]: We've got people listening to this going, I can't even get them to go to the shops.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I guess we got them before they knew they had a choice.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And it became normalized that every weekend we were on missions.

[00:32:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We were going canoeing, rock climbing, skiing, caving, tramping every weekend.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It was basically we're off doing something.

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was because that's what we enjoyed.

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was also about spending that time as a unit.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were very cautious about spending, like breaking up that intense experience.

[00:32:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So we would do stuff with other people sometimes.

[00:33:01] [SPEAKER_01]: There's another family that we did a lot of big missions with, like literally like,

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, 10, 12 day adventure journeys and things.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But we would always be very protective of the type five.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_01]: We noticed that if it's just the five of us out there on a big adventure, we were the team.

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_05]: When, you know, as they're getting older and you're doing more of these trips,

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_05]: are there other things that you're finding in the team building side of things?

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_05]: Like when you're on them, are there things that you notice that help facilitate that,

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_05]: you know, gelling the team together or, you know, whether they're little rituals or traditions

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_05]: or things that pop up where it strengthens the bond?

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Or is it merely just the fact that you are all in it together?

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's more that we're all in it together.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And you just, I guess you're just living together 24 seven.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And so just by the nature of that environment, you're just learning about each other all the time.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're picking up on little things and you overhear the kids talking to each other,

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: or they'll talk to one of us or various different things.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, he's like, you know, if you've got dirt, water and sun, just provide that environment

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_05]: and then let it grow from there and see what grows.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, and I think for us, you know, I'm sure my children would agree with this,

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that they all get on super well.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And it has been commented to us as though growing up and, you know,

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: how tight they are as a three pod of siblings.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And for many years, they stayed in the same bedroom for ages.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They all had their individual bedrooms in the house,

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: but they all slept in one room because they were so used to sleeping in a tent

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that they felt uncomfortable.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It was like, well, where is everyone?

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_05]: So.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_05]: What was your policy on taking kids out of school to go on adventures?

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_05]: If they had to miss a few days here and there?

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, they, you know, the school always at us about, um, where are they?

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But they also knew that we were out doing these things.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, pretty educational stuff.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And we were, I mean, we were, we're really blessed, you know, like we, um,

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Jodie and I come from both working class families, but just the way life's kind of unraveled,

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: like we've found ourselves in a pretty great situation financially.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we've got opportunities and I think for us, you know, our, our, our kids have,

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, they live in a very privileged, um, household.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they can, we can support them to go and do the things they want to do.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, and I'm so proud of that from Jodie and I that we've managed to sort of create

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and provide that.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But equally, you know, we want them to know about suffering and discomfort and toughness.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and that's why we, we chose what we did.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they, they're tough.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, you know, they, they've spent days out in the mountains and just, you know, pouring

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: rain and, and pushing through things.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And, um, so they're gritty and nuggety and, and, and, and so they, even though, you know,

[00:36:00] [SPEAKER_01]: we, we, like I said, you know, we live in this kind of privileged sort of too comfortable

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: life for them.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, they never had that for long because this weekend is going to be a mission.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_05]: But it's, it's such a, you know, obviously the outdoors is such a great teacher for that.

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_05]: And we, there isn't much of an antidote for that apart from doing things, I think in the

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_05]: outdoors and, and having to like rely on your own steam to get you through situations.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_05]: But we all know the lessons, one of the big lessons we want to teach as parents is the,

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_05]: is resilience and is how do you, how will you react when your back's against the wall?

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_05]: And it really, there isn't much of a safety net and it's on you and do you have the skills

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_05]: and we, we facilitated the skills to use for you.

[00:36:42] [SPEAKER_05]: So yeah, obviously the outdoors is a ferociously good teacher of that.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it is.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, you know, I, I think it probably is an environment that yeah, if, if people can

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: provide some, some experiences in the outdoors for their kids, I think they are pretty powerful.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, like I know that it's not easy for everyone to get access to the outdoors, but if you can,

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I, I do believe that there is something real unique about just connecting with nature,

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the very simple living.

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's very basic, you know, you get, you get forced to strip back to basics and, and you just

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_01]: naturally learn such important lessons out there.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, perhaps a way of describing, you know, what we wanted to sort of, um, facilitate

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_01]: with our kids was essentially that diminished by comparison model where they go out, we outline

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_01]: this, this big trip we're going to do, whether it be sea hiking around the Sawa islands and

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Fiji or big trip we've got somewhere else or whatever it might be.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and they, they go and do this trip and there's a glamorous side to it.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like, Oh, this is amazing when you kids are so lucky they're going on this trip.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, yeah, they're going to be suffering.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: This is going to hurt.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not going to be easy.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: They're going to be pushed.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And they are.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but over time, you know, they start to make that connection.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even think you need to explain it to them.

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_01]: They know that something happens at school or something happens in a day to life.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's a challenge and it's hard, but they're very quick to probably go,

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Hmm, it's actually, this is actually not that hard.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I've done harder.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got this.

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_05]: It's amazing.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You want to talk about hard?

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll tell you what's hard.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_05]: But that, you know, that comes with obviously that it takes years to build up those layers

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_05]: of varnish because it's, but they are, but what I'm hearing and what I always love when

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_05]: I hear stories like this is like, you know, you remember that like kids are so capable.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_05]: You just have to give them the chance to prove how capable they are.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's probably one of the biggest things that I don't know.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I was going to say the word crime.

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I've said it now.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So I can't take it back.

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Probably one of the biggest crimes I think that some parents can do to their kids is

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: transfer their limitations onto their kids.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And I see that too.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I see, I see some talented young people and I listen to the language their parents are basically

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to them and it's like, you're suppressing this child.

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You're putting limits on them that they don't need.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I can see that that's a limitation for you, but it doesn't need to be for them.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's kind of sad.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I used to work for Sport NZ for a number of years, for about a decade in high performance

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: secondary school sport.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I saw that a bit where, yeah, they'd just be talented young people, but you know.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They lose belief.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: There's limitations on them coming externally.

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You know.

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_05]: You operate, you know, in adventure racing, you're often in a four person team.

[00:39:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_05]: What did you learn from that environment that you were like, okay, this applies perfectly

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_05]: to building the team on the home front?

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the very common things, and in fact, it was probably almost the other way around.

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I took a lot of things from what I learned as our family team and applying that

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: to the adventure racing team.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The core things are the basic ones as you'd expect.

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a level of, there's a high level of respect.

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yep.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you just respect the person for who they are and accept them for who they are

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and you're wearing the team together and, you know, we're just going to get along a lot better

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_01]: if we all just, if we all do that.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: There has to be a strong level of trust.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why there needs to be a higher level of trust in both those team environments

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: or any team environment, I think, is that there needs to be honest communication.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And that will normally only happen if there's a high level of trust.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Because people are not going to probably be super honest about how they're feeling

[00:40:39] [SPEAKER_01]: or what their needs are if they don't feel that there's a level of trust there.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Because either they get laughed at or they just know it's not going to happen

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: or they'll get disrespected because, you know, they're trying to tell someone that they're feeling weak.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, in some teams that's not acceptable probably because you're supposed to be strong.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So why are you telling me you're weak or whatever it may be?

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's those kind of things, you know, the basic sort of elements of that sort of foundation.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I think if you sort of add, if you sort of dig a little bit deeper, I think in the team,

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_01]: which kind of sort of leads into probably my third word that I would use.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But, well, maybe I'll just go straight to that.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, go straight to that.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So the third word I'd use is composure.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So as a father.

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why that's important to me is because what's really important is to keep communication lines open

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: and to be approachable.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's probably one thing I actually don't think I've achieved that well.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I think at times, and my kids might listen to this podcast if they listen to it and go,

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: no, dad's actually wrong there.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But I feel sometimes that I'm not as approachable as I'd like to be.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I think sometimes my kids are a little bit scared of me.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And you put that down to like a slight being, you know, a slight maladjustment of composure

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_05]: or you're just not composed in the right?

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's because, no, it's not because of my composure.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that would be because of some of the consequences that as they were younger in those formative years,

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_01]: where I would do the whole, okay, this is the situation.

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You need to do this for these reasons.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Otherwise, if you don't, there's going to be a consequence.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they've not done it.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I go, okay, we had this discussion.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You had your warning.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Now let's talk about the consequence.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_05]: And you reckon they looked back on that and felt it was too harsh or it was too?

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, I know that we've talked about this not that long ago with the kids.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think they sort of laugh a bit and go, oh, no, that was funny that time you put me in the gorse bush

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: or that was funny that time you threw me into the river.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think deep down, you know, deep down at some emotional level, you know, they're probably like, oh, dead, dead's a bit full on at times.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_05]: I wasn't ready for that.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah, sort of thing.

[00:43:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe I could be wrong, but.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_05]: But do you know what?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, just again, hearing this, I'm like, none of us, this is this to me, just like, you know, not a single one of us could ever know.

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_05]: Like we're all just feeling it out.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_05]: So of course no one gets to adulthood.

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I don't think anyone gets their children to adulthood and their kids turn around and be like, you know what?

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_05]: Every decision you made was just in the Goldie Lock zone.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Just perfect.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, totally.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_05]: So of course there's going to be those words.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_05]: So what does composure mean to you?

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So the composure for me is if, in a sort of another phrase, another way of saying it, is my little mantra is that nothing will shock me.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Oh, wow.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_05]: That's great.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So when my kids come to me or something happens, or they've got a request, or they've got an idea, whatever it might be, my initial response is nothing is going to shock me.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So if they come up to me and say, hey, dad, blah, blah, blah, my whole thing is no matter how shocking that is.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's more like, I won't let it shock me.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No, exactly.

[00:43:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I won't let it.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_05]: Even if it shocks me, I'm not going to let it show.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Because you have to keep that communication line open.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, oh, that's interesting.

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Even though deep down I'm going, oh my God, what the hell?

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_05]: Wow.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's...

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'll use that in the bench racing team as well.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of like, we're out there racing, we're in world champs, you know, there's big money on the line, we've got a big corporate sponsor, blah, blah, blah.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: My lead navigator, Chris, says to me, man, I don't know what's going on.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just making it up for example.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, it's not like...

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_05]: If he says, I think we're down the wrong river.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not like, what the hell, you idiot?

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We were trying to win a race.

[00:44:33] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's kind of like, oh, that's interesting.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, so really?

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, cool.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And so...

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_05]: And do you find by creating that pause almost, it allows, yeah, it allows the communication to keep flowing, doesn't turn it into a panic situation, doesn't shut everything down.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_05]: And it keeps momentum.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it keeps a cap on the emotion as well, because you kind of just kind of, you know, you're sort of just putting that down and going, well, look, you probably will have to address the emotion later, but I'm not going to deal with it now while I am emotive, because that's just not going to be helpful.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And what it does in the team environment, what my experience is, is that you move really quickly to another phrase we sort of developed, event tracing, which is a solution-based thinking.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, okay, I'll give you a real example.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_05]: Well, I mean, that seems obvious to me that would go hand in hand because you can't be thinking of solutions when you're shocked.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_05]: So if you're like, I won't let something shock me, and it's a bit of fake it to your maker, right?

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_05]: So it's like, if I can successfully portray and become a person that isn't shocked by this, I actually have a chance to be that person.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yes.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_05]: And then I can move to solving something.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Even if I'm terrified.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's right.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think-

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_05]: And what is an example?

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, the racing example would be, we were in Spain, we were the World Champs, and Chris,

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_01]: who's a good friend of mine, our lead navigator, best adventure racing navigator in the world

[00:45:57] [SPEAKER_01]: by far, we're mountain biking down through this forest.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And he decided to, he saw this sort of shortcut, single track shortcut that just linked these big zigzag forestry roads.

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And so he thought, oh, that looks fun.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And he just dived off the single track and rode down just for fun.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And went over the handlebars and broke his map, hold off his bike and damaged his front wheel and could have really hurt himself.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, so we just regrouped.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It was just a little bit of fun, but it ended up, well, this is the World Champs.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So my initial thing was like, what the hell?

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you thinking?

[00:46:34] [SPEAKER_01]: You know?

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But because I just like go, okay, just compose, chill.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I basically ride over to Chris and go, hey, mate, how are you?

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_01]: How are you?

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you okay?

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_01]: He's like, yeah, I'm okay.

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: He's dusting himself off.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, your map holder's broken.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:46:49] [SPEAKER_01]: How will you fix that?

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so straight away, you're just getting into the solution.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is that he knows what he's done is stupid.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_01]: The last thing he needs is me is telling him that I agree.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Reminding him that breaking your bike is a bad idea.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And we will bring it up, but we'll talk about it when we're having a coffee and a cream bun a couple of days after.

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's no emotion and the race is all done and done.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So I say, Chris, what was up, man, with you taking that short cut?

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, is hitting single track during a race really necessary?

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And he'd be like, nah, that was pretty stupid.

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_05]: When you've got teenage kids, I can imagine, you know, I'm going to face this myself,

[00:47:28] [SPEAKER_05]: but you've gone through it now, you know, through many years of your kids being teenagers,

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_05]: they will come to you sometimes.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm sure there were times when you were like, I am very shocked.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_05]: But do you find on the whole you're able to, like that strategy of going, I'm going to portray a person that isn't shocked, paid dividends?

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think so.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: To be honest, they'll generally go to my wife first.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But then...

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_05]: That's going to throw me in the river again.

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:47:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But they will, initially it comes back to me.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And, or sometimes they will, they will come to me.

[00:47:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But more often than not, they'll go...

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_05]: And does she run the same policy term?

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_05]: That like there's a consistency in those policies?

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: She's probably not quite as calm and chill as I am.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like she'll say that, you know, I'm half Salmon.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So Polynesians by nature are generally pretty chill.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I sort of do tap into that and...

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But she's great.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: She's good, chill.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: She's got really open communication with all the children.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And, yep, they know they can go to her and she's not going to hit the roof.

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_01]: She may have once or twice, but yeah, she's human.

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Once or twice is a pretty good record.

[00:48:40] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_05]: Pretty good track record.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's the thing.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think in our high performance event racing team and our family team, you know, people

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_01]: need to know they've got a voice and they need to know that they can say, speak up, whatever

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: it is, and they're not going to be, you know, I guess judged for that or that it's going

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to be a negative thing.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And an event racing team, especially as team captain, I need to know how people are feeling.

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're not strong right now, I need to know how the team can change in order for

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: you to be strong again, because we need everyone strong.

[00:49:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So the fact that someone's not feeling great, no drama.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: What's important is, is that we change that.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I guess that's same in the team.

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_01]: If someone in our family team is struggling for a bit, we just need to know.

[00:49:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to know what's happening.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_01]: What support do you need?

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just there for you.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, as a parent, I'm very reluctant to give advice.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'll generally just listen.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I might find some ideas, but it's more about just...

[00:49:40] [SPEAKER_05]: I think that's a tough thing to do though, to not give advice sometimes.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_05]: I think it's a great policy to, and we talk about it a fair bit on this show, that battle

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_05]: that goes on, especially in a lot of guys' heads between wanting to give advice versus

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_05]: the need to just listen.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, to me it circles back to the freedom thing.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I think in order to really do that...

[00:50:05] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, to walk the walk.

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_05]: If you're really giving them freedom, you're just there to listen.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if they ask for advice, fine.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if they seek it out.

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But my experience with people in general, and my children, is someone needs to ask me more

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: than once for advice before I give it.

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, often the first time they ask, they don't actually really want it.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like, yeah, you've got to convince me.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:50:28] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot, before I'm going to give you my honest opinion on this.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I don't actually think most of the time they actually want it.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think they want?

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_01]: They just want to bounce.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: They just want to say the bit, they want to experiment with saying,

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: seeing how it feels in the real world.

[00:50:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they essentially fix the problem themselves.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: They're just testing it.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't want me to fix it.

[00:50:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's not unfair for me too, because if I fix that problem, then I'm depowering them.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_05]: That's really interesting.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the thing is, I have no consequence.

[00:51:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So if I give advice to my kids and it doesn't work out, it's kind of, well, there's actually

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_01]: no consequence for me.

[00:51:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But if it does work out with good advice, they're going, well, that's kind of dad's advice,

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_01]: not mine.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So I just think, stay out of it.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_05]: Very, very, very true.

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_05]: And being half Samoan, are there hearts, you know, of your Samoan heritage that you bring

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_05]: into parenting that you want to keep alive or philosophies that are more prevalent perhaps

[00:51:29] [SPEAKER_05]: in that side of your family?

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there are aspects of the culture that I've sort of plucked out of it and put into

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_01]: our family environment.

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_01]: In Samoa, you know, I come from, our family comes from one of the villages and the children

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: are literally still raised by the village there.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So the aunties and uncles and grandparents are still actively involved in raising all the

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: children.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were there last year with our kids.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_01]: We cycle turned around and then hung out at the village.

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And you see it every day.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Basically, kids doing something in the village, auntie comes along and says, hey, look, you

[00:52:08] [SPEAKER_01]: know, so-and-so, do this or this way or whatever it might be, you know, or don't go there.

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_01]: That's dangerous.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone's cross involved.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:52:14] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not your chicken.

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So take that back.

[00:52:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Whatever it may be.

[00:52:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So, so I, you know, I think, and it's that old adage that, you know, it takes a sort

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: of, you know, a community or village to raise, raise a child.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think, I think that model, you know, we've sort of condensed that into our family environment

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_01]: as well, but also used our extended family and, and our friend network to be, to be around,

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to be.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_05]: To be those other roles.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: To be other, other, other people.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, we've got some close friends that we've done a lot of, um, event trips

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: with.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and, you know, I've heard my friends, um, disciplining my kids or telling them stuff

[00:52:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and doing things and I'm not, might not necessarily agree, but I'm like, well, it's not for me

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_01]: to decide anyway.

[00:52:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's for the kids to decide whether they take that on board or not.

[00:53:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I just like it because it's kind of like.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_05]: I agree.

[00:53:05] [SPEAKER_05]: When you have that feeling that they're just exposed to other good human, good people

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_05]: like that you trust and you know, it's such a, it's, man.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:53:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I feel it.

[00:53:15] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, I think a lot of people in modern Western society feel that's missing because

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_05]: it just becomes a smaller and smaller and smaller unit.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:53:21] [SPEAKER_05]: And then you've got like daycare and you've got things that aren't the same as having a

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_05]: big extended family around.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, and I think that, you know, obviously the, for young people in the, you know,

[00:53:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in their village situation, you know, they, they see other role models and they just

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: pluck and take from different things.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_05]: Um, I always seem to love the fact that when you see situations like that, it's like you

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_05]: have a, you have like a 15 year old holding a two year old.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_05]: That's like not, you know, that's a loose relative, but everyone's just sort of mixed

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_05]: in together and they cross pollinate, I suppose, like their social skills cross pollinate.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Totally.

[00:53:54] [SPEAKER_01]: If I can, I can share a story about that.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, or on that, on that sort of vein.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But the other thing I like about, um, you know, the life in the sort of the village

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and things is that, you know, if you think back to, uh, sort of, I guess, pre-development

[00:54:09] [SPEAKER_01]: of the Pacific islands, they, they were basically heavens.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, there was, it's a warm climate, there's abundance of food.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, there's really not much to do.

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So, cause survival is actually quite easy because it's warm and there's plenty of food.

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, islanders, uh, I think the Western world would call them lazy, but I

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of call them sort of onto it or a bit more chill and calm and sort of composed.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I've sort of brought that across as well.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a, there's a, a kind of a model or there's a, there's a saying in the village

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, if someone's got a problem in the village, then they go and see the chief.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And what, what this is sort of the moral of a story type sort of thing.

[00:54:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And the chief sort of says, okay, well, yep.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me think about it.

[00:54:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Come and see me tomorrow.

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, so the person goes back to see the chief and says, oh, you know, I've got

[00:54:55] [SPEAKER_01]: this problem, this dispute going on, blah, blah, blah.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Chief's like, yep.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll let me think about it a bit more.

[00:54:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Come and see me tomorrow.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And they basically do this for three or four days until the person is like, well, the problem,

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01]: it's not really a problem anymore.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even need to go and see the chief.

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and it's just like, you know, and I, and I think sometimes that in the Western world,

[00:55:13] [SPEAKER_01]: we get, we don't need to invent problems.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: No, we get wound up on things that are actually not that important.

[00:55:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so often I, often I put that pressure test there and I've done that as a parent as well.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going, am I going to see the chief about this?

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: No.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause it's not worth it.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It's three or four days time.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Would I go for five days in a row to see the chief about this?

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: No, three or four days time.

[00:55:29] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not even going to be an issue.

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So just drop it now.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that a lot.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not worth it.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But, um, I'll, the other thing I'll, you mentioned before about in the village, um,

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, you, there's a teenager walking around with a baby.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I was actually 16 when my youngest sister was born.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And so my brother and I grew up with a baby in the house and I actually learned as a six,

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_01]: as a teenager, how to change nappies and how to bath a baby and how to feed a baby.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I watched my sister, um, you know, they grow up through all those formative years.

[00:56:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, often Jodie and I, my wife and I have been together for a long time and we were dating.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, not certainly, you know, my youngest sister was like three or four years old.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So we'd sometimes take her for a walk and people would think we were a young couple.

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They go, Oh, look at your little daughter.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's actually my sister.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, thanks.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_01]: But as interesting cause I, I guess what that meant was, is that when I went into parenthood for the first time when my oldest daughter, Jessie was born, you know, I, I sort of had this sense of confidence.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause I'd grown up in a Polynesian environment where you are handed the babies and the kids and you know, you grow up with this stuff.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I didn't live in the village.

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I spent a lot of time there.

[00:56:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I never lived there, but even in, in New Zealand, you know, that part of that culture sort of is still here, but more so just with my sister.

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So when, when we, when we had our first child, Jessie, you know, I, I sort of had this kind of confidence because I'm like, it wasn't that long ago when I was doing this with my younger sister, but something really interesting happened.

[00:56:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And my wife will, um, kind of talk about this to this day is, is that it was all new to her.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_01]: She was a first time mum.

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_05]: But yeah, but she had this husband that knew what to do.

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But what happened was, is that, um, she was more actively involved on a day to day basis.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So she would sort of bath, you know, Jessie, our youngest daughter and, you know, do this and do that because she was around and I was kind of doing other stuff.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was quite early on, you know, Jessie was probably only a couple of weeks old.

[00:57:25] [SPEAKER_01]: What I started to notice is that my wife had sort of very quickly become an expert at everything.

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was starting to kind of really, uh, judge me and give me instructions on how to do things.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm starting to think, hold on a minute.

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_01]: I've been here before.

[00:57:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So I actually sort of said to her one day, I said, look, Jodie, um, look, I totally appreciate that you, that you are learning all this stuff and you're doing it every day and you're doing an awesome job.

[00:57:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But if I'm going to step up and start being a parent as well, and you criticize me at every move I make, it's just going to push me away.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And she was like, oh my God, I didn't really think about that.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she, and then she gave me the freedom to be a parent my way and let me make mistakes as a dad and let me do it in my style.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's been like that right through to present day.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_05]: I mean, going back to the teamwork piece, like what a great thing that, you know, as teammates, you can do for each other to give each other that slack.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, totally. Totally.

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just like, that's your style.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I may not agree with it, but you know, the kids, the kids need to decide.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's up to them.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_05]: I love it.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: But it also just, it also just comes back to that, you know, my, I guess my original thing of, of just that sort of freedom and just empowering them and letting them, it's their life.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I've always had that philosophy that, you know, I'm a very independent person and I, it actually works for me that they're the independent people as well.

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's just five independent people living together in this family team.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_05]: But I think that's what I love so much about your story and what you've shared with us today, Nath, because I'd say it's a world class example of, of giving kids independence, but not confusing that with not being there.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_05]: You've, you've, you've sort of master, it sounds like you've mastered or given a beautiful example of like, of a, a kid that's completely free to choose what they want to do and be independent, but is also surrounded by love and support and the presence of the rest of the family.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_05]: Not to be confused with like, Hey, go and have fun in the big world.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_05]: We're letting you go free.

[00:59:37] [SPEAKER_05]: So I think that's an amazing thing that you've balanced for those kids.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you.

[00:59:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, hopefully.

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_05]: It's so good.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_05]: That seems like that's a really powerful choice to make.

[00:59:50] [SPEAKER_05]: And it's obviously, you know, pays dividends because you've got three kids that are doing what they want to do, but with the unquestioned feeling of love and support.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_05]: And that's pretty, I think that's pretty awesome.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[01:00:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it is.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I think, I mean, and I think, you know, I will say too that, um, you know, one of the underlying things that Jodie and I,

[01:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I've, I've always, have always shared with the kids and, and expressed and led by example as much as we could is just, just being good people.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, just being honest and kind and tolerant and, you know, just, just being valuable citizens where we can be in our community and, you know, and, and the reach that we have.

[01:00:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And, and I think just by, by us sort of living that as much as we possibly can, you know, I'd like to think that our, that the kids are seen by their peers as, as that as well.

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Just, just good, honest people that are, you know, they're not, yeah, they are, they're, they're, they're good folks.

[01:00:51] [SPEAKER_05]: I know, mate.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And well, thank you for coming and being such a good human for us today.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you, mate.

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_05]: I loved it.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Awesome.

[01:00:57] [SPEAKER_05]: Cool, cool.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_05]: Thank you again, Nathan.

[01:01:08] [SPEAKER_05]: So just so generous with his time again, like pretty much just off an email was willing to come and have that chat with us.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_05]: So, I mean, it's just a testament to the kind of guy he is.

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_05]: It is worth mentioning, and I'm sure he won't mind me saying this, that when we were talking to him, like, you know, hey, this is what we're doing.

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_05]: He said, yep, love to do it.

[01:01:25] [SPEAKER_05]: It was the last week of August we recorded this.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_05]: And he said, I'm just going to give you a bit of a caveat.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_05]: That's the best time for powder snow in New Zealand.

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_05]: And so now that you've heard him, this won't surprise you to know that in his email, he said, look, my wife and I have a bit of a rule that if.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_05]: If we have anything booked in that, like, back half of August and it just so happens that near our house is good skiing conditions, we'll have to cancel and go and ski the powder because that's what they do together.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_05]: And we wrote back going, that's probably the best email I've ever got in terms of how to say yes with a but on it.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_05]: I was like, there's a man that's got his life priorities straight.

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_05]: A dream of sending the, yeah, I'm in except if there's good snow emails in my future.

[01:02:09] [SPEAKER_05]: So as well as the many things he gave us in that chat, he also gave us email inspiration.

[01:02:14] [SPEAKER_05]: And it was, you know, it was awesome.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_05]: Tim and I actually, when we were in New Zealand, we took our kids for a bit of a ski adventure.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, when you get kids between seven and 11, the old let's try and be unshockable mantra really helped us on some of those longer days.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_05]: So thanks again, Nathan.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_05]: And thanks for listening, everyone.

[01:02:32] [SPEAKER_05]: How Are The Dad's Dad is produced by myself and my mate Tim Bartley.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_05]: The theme song is thanks to the incredibly talented Tom Carty.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_05]: You can find him drenched throughout the internet.

[01:02:53] [SPEAKER_05]: We recorded this episode in the beautiful country of Aotearoa, a lands, a people and a culture we have so much respect and love for.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_05]: We had the best time.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_05]: We encourage everyone to visit.

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_05]: That makes it sound like it's sponsored.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_05]: It's not, but we had a great time.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_05]: If you want to say hi, head to our website, howarethedadsdad.com.

[01:03:12] [SPEAKER_05]: But most of all, thank you for listening.

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Hamish is a dad who just spoke with a dad and it blew his tiny mind about what he learned.

[01:03:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So he'll keep on a dad and force on them to talk to him.

[01:03:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So he can find other dads dad.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_05]: A quick note before we go to once again thank Hertz, our gorgeous sponsors of How Are The Dads.

[01:03:36] [SPEAKER_05]: Dad, whether you are going somewhere for fun, for adventure, for business, whatever it is, you get more cars, more destinations, more choices, more of the good stuff.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_05]: With Hertz, you simply book your car.

[01:03:48] [SPEAKER_05]: You leave the rest to us.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_05]: That's them saying it.

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_05]: That's me and Hertz.

[01:03:52] [SPEAKER_05]: You leave the rest to us because I suppose I do.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_05]: I'm part of the Hertz family.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_05]: So, yeah, book your car.

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_05]: Leave the rest to us.

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_05]: I'll obviously then pass it on to the team that are more used to handling the bookings.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_05]: I won't personally be handling your booking.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_05]: But, yeah, leave it to us, mate.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_05]: And, you know, we'll take it from there.

[01:04:08] [SPEAKER_05]: As I mentioned at the top, if you go to hertz.com.au forward slash H-O-D-D, HOD, howarethedad'sdad, forward slash H-O-D-D, you get 25% off the day rate with Hertz.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_05]: There are T's and C's that apply there.

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_05]: Listen to that.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_05]: Can I just read you a quick testimony before we go?

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_05]: From Kieran, okay?

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_05]: Hey, Hertz customer, father of two.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_05]: Listen to this podcast.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_05]: Took his girls to the Gold Coast, right?

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_05]: They hired a Hertz car, got 25% off at the best time, went to the theme parks, and he just said, hey, thanks, Hertz.

[01:04:38] [SPEAKER_05]: Love you so much.

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_05]: Now, that's obviously a made-up testimonial, but you could really see that being true.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_05]: You know, that could be you, but just with a different name and different circumstances.

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_05]: Thanks, Hertz.

[01:04:48] Thanks, Hertz.