How Wayne Hope Dads - Stepdadding, working on yourself, dadding after trauma and creating joy.

[00:00:00] Get A Everyone, I mean officially welcome to season 3 of How Other Dads Dad, but I'm gonna do the same

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[00:01:30] How Other Dads Dads Dads

[00:01:37] Hello welcome back. Welcome to season three of how Other Dads Dad

[00:01:42] We we're stoked to be doing season three you know to be honest but do you since really because we didn't want to stop?

[00:01:48] That's basically the longest shot of it. We have so much fun putting this show together and the response and the feedback we get from people is really hard

[00:01:55] So this might be your first time listening to the show in which case welcome you can go back

[00:02:02] You should go back. Well, you know after I mean do we want go back if you want to start a season one because

[00:02:08] I mean yeah, it's all still even though that's now two years old

[00:02:11] I would say that I think the stuff we touch on here is pretty relevant

[00:02:17] Universely and man we got a great season

[00:02:19] We've been so lucky as

[00:02:21] regular lessons with no 10 and I

[00:02:23] It's just sort of us it's a two-man operation

[00:02:26] I would say to him. So how do everyone to him but he's not even here. He's in a different state

[00:02:31] And I'm recording this by myself and Sydney

[00:02:33] I'm not saying I do the most of the work Tim does all the editing so thank you for that

[00:02:37] Just saying we're a cover to man operation and we take a few months to put these shows together and these interviews together

[00:02:43] And that is sort of the selfish side of how Other Dads Dad

[00:02:46] We really do it because we just enjoy these conversations so much and I feel so lucky to talk to the guests

[00:02:51] We get to talk to and glean that wisdom from them, but we've had a ball and

[00:02:58] Whatever the deep and meaningful version of having a ball is sphere I suppose because it's another dementia on a ball

[00:03:06] So also three dimensional you know what I mean it's been it's extremely

[00:03:10] Moving to have these conversations with these guys conversations you wouldn't normally get to have

[00:03:16] Even though a lot of the people that come on the show are mates this sort of

[00:03:20] I guess provide the excuse for one of a better term to have these conversations and and hopefully and I know this is the case

[00:03:26] Hopefully in in your own lives

[00:03:29] It gives reason to go you know this is where the good stuff in life is talking to friends and and family members to about this

[00:03:38] This sort of stuff because you know the whole reason the show is this is we

[00:03:42] Bloody well of being dads we

[00:03:44] No-en the a great at it, but I think we're all here for the same reason which is we deeply care about

[00:03:51] Trying to do a little bit better for the little people in our lives other big little people in our lives as

[00:03:58] I'll be go day by day. So today episode one enough rambal

[00:04:02] Is Wayne hope Wayne is not just an incredibly talented and funny man

[00:04:08] I'm also lucky enough to call him and mate

[00:04:10] I mean everyone knows Wayne hope you'd be well aware of his work, but just because he's got such a great body of it

[00:04:17] He deserves an intro like everyone else. I think I'm first all Wayne back in the calf program like way back in the late 90s playing

[00:04:25] Sort of weird and wonderful characters people remember he's wrong the castle

[00:04:28] We just we do loop we seem to loop back through the castle as a movie a lot on this show

[00:04:34] I was very lucky that was cast by Wayne and he's incredibly

[00:04:37] Brilliant wife Robin Butler in their show the librarians and then I went on to do a movie with Wayne and Robin

[00:04:44] Which bought me close to the telly came mates with each other up in the robot

[00:04:49] And of course is a classic they want on to create that and of course

[00:04:52] I think for a lot of listeners of this show there's the series the investigators and we'll lunch both global hits

[00:04:59] On Netflix and through ABC

[00:05:02] Unreal such a such a huge body of work, but I know Wayne as an incredibly funny and

[00:05:07] Incredible and and caring and decent guy and I know teams not here, but he would absolutely back me up on that team

[00:05:16] So really really close friends with Wayne too

[00:05:18] so we just love Wayne as a bloke and Wayne

[00:05:23] certainly has a unique story in terms of our other guests as everyone does in our chat

[00:05:28] You're gonna hear a lot of what are Wayne's wisdom, but he also shares I think incredibly

[00:05:32] Corrigiously he is childhood story that involved situation a situation of domestic violence

[00:05:38] That was perpetrated by his dad and the huge ripple effect it had on his life

[00:05:45] On his early life, he's decision to get into parenting

[00:05:48] So a bit of a warning that that that is that does feature in this chat

[00:05:51] It's it is it's a really heavy topic

[00:05:54] But it's a really important topic obviously and I think Wayne manages to explain it phenomenally

[00:06:00] Compassionately and honestly so a pre-thank you to Wayne for sharing your story

[00:06:05] It's you know as we all know the the the horrors of male violence and domestic abuse

[00:06:11] It's it's a very it's a really important conversation that's happening at the moment that needs to be had at the moment

[00:06:16] And the the ripple effect

[00:06:19] It's huge as you hear from Wayne in the toll that has on the community, but I think he also does a really

[00:06:25] Beautiful job of trying of framing and how he's working working through that engineering impact

[00:06:30] So there's a lot more to the talk then that part, but I did want to flag that up front

[00:06:35] For people in case that's that's a situation for you that that is contained in this episode

[00:06:41] But there was also so much beautiful wisdom so much beautiful joy from Wayne as a man as a dad as a stepdad

[00:06:48] I hope you enjoy how Wayne hoped that

[00:06:55] Dad

[00:06:58] Wayne thank you so much

[00:07:00] Thank you, I miss I think it sounds like the ending it's the beginning of the ending

[00:07:04] Thank you so much. No, you know what I've got in my head. I've got there

[00:07:06] Because I just looked up before we said and I just I could hear the the intro music playing which

[00:07:12] How are their dads dad dad and the other day I was at the supermarket looking for soy milk for Robin

[00:07:19] She's changed brands it was a nightmare and I was just got out of the car and I was humming

[00:07:23] I was saying it and how are the dads dad dad now look across and there's a woman looking at me

[00:07:28] Must be the most bizarre

[00:07:32] Guys got a theme song myself

[00:07:35] But I I mean Tom Cardi who wrote the song like his given is probably the greatest

[00:07:39] E-worm of all time he's a massive E-worm and it's even

[00:07:43] I think it's worse for me because

[00:07:47] Unbeknownst to myself. I'll just start singing hey, Mrs. Erdard the loves

[00:07:53] It's really narcissistic for me. It was a two-third person

[00:07:57] Just as I'm pushing the kids on the screen

[00:08:02] Scaldrup off wrapped with a hand she was the dad waving

[00:08:07] Well, you are a dad you're a terrific dad and I've been lucky enough to know for a very long time

[00:08:12] And I've always admired the way you are with your kids, but also the way and we'll touch on this to you

[00:08:17] I with your partner Robin you you guys have a beautiful

[00:08:21] Beautiful relationship and team, but for those that don't know how many how many kids do you have what are we talking?

[00:08:28] I've got two

[00:08:30] Rippers yeah

[00:08:31] and two total

[00:08:35] Wow

[00:08:38] Two Rippers and one oh dear

[00:08:41] No two beautiful

[00:08:43] daughters who are 21 and

[00:08:48] 28 Molly my 28 year old is my step daughter and she's I've been

[00:08:54] Lucky enough to be in her life since she was two and a half yeah, that's when I met Robin

[00:08:59] Amazing and so touching on that for a second instant dad was that did it

[00:09:05] Throw you at all back in there if you remember back to those. Oh, yeah

[00:09:08] Because I know it happens to a lot of guys, but it's not ever something you necessarily plan or it would be a strange thing to plan

[00:09:15] I got a target some women that have

[00:09:20] Kelly your great the only problem is you don't have a two year old and I'd always

[00:09:26] Becoming everything I want except just can't do this unless you didn't have a pretty

[00:09:30] But so do you remember what that was like and and and yeah along it took to get into the rhythm?

[00:09:35] Yeah, it it was very very

[00:09:37] confronting at at at first

[00:09:42] Robin was incredible from the get-go how emotionally

[00:09:47] Direct and connected she is where we started seeing each other

[00:09:52] We met through work through a

[00:09:56] series that she had written and I got cast in it playing a husband and we pitted off

[00:10:02] immediately but she said I've got a daughter

[00:10:06] and I'm not interested in having a relationship unless you're interested in being part of this whole relationship

[00:10:14] And you know what are you gonna say? Yeah, I'm not actually so I will turn it you know

[00:10:19] You're gonna no matter what say yes of course and then the reality of it saying it's one thing

[00:10:24] I'm gonna do it and then doing it and and for the first

[00:10:28] I think it was about six months

[00:10:30] Robin was living in a in a flat in sickhilda with Molly and I would go there and she would kick me out during the night

[00:10:38] So Molly would

[00:10:40] She's so you'd never is no sleep up. Yes, so you couldn't encounter Molly you can you can stay

[00:10:45] But about two, three, three o'clock in the morning. Oh, I'm up up. I figured

[00:10:49] Yeah, that's how I was going anyway

[00:10:51] It was very really riser

[00:10:53] And it was her being

[00:10:55] fiercely protective of Molly to go I'm you know

[00:10:59] I need to know that this is going to be something that for for Molly and for myself and it brought that out in me to go very quickly

[00:11:09] At that point to go can I cope with that or do I have the space for that or the inclination for that and

[00:11:16] It was very quick to go. Yes, that's a something I want that I didn't realize

[00:11:21] And it was fantastic. It really

[00:11:23] Drew a lot out of me very quickly that I think would have taken years otherwise. Yeah, I suppose in that situation

[00:11:30] If you get together with someone and you have a baby you're both on the same learning curve or similar

[00:11:36] But then to meet someone who's kind of leading by example. Yes, this is what it takes to have a kid

[00:11:40] And this is how fiercely I'll prioritise them

[00:11:43] That was striking to go your possibly not first

[00:11:47] Yes, which

[00:11:50] For again those was then into a ridership where you get married

[00:11:53] Yeah, or what if you get together you are first yeah, and then the kick-up and you got in you

[00:11:58] I like it okay, but at least you had a little bit of big first. Yeah, and in your head you think you were first because you were

[00:12:04] And they see like no pretty solidly told

[00:12:08] Back of the cumin just ran you go

[00:12:11] Yeah, right and but then and then not too long like that, um, you know then along came

[00:12:15] You're second order and then

[00:12:17] Well that was seven years seven years seven year gap and

[00:12:23] What's was very odd was that I?

[00:12:27] Pushed back on the idea of having a child after that. I was still frightened to

[00:12:32] Have a child

[00:12:34] Have a baby after that and I remember one see as the difference

[00:12:38] um

[00:12:39] I think

[00:12:42] It's puzzling because I was all in at that point we moved in together

[00:12:48] After about a year and we had this you know we were a family

[00:12:53] But there was something else

[00:12:55] About this ask of me that I didn't cope with it

[00:13:00] Molly would you know it's spend time with a father and at one of those times at a terrible

[00:13:05] I took Robin out for Christmas lunch which Christmas is a warst they're very hard in

[00:13:10] Chad families events are notoriously hard to juggle who's turned is it

[00:13:16] Special times of the year a very very painful and very hard to go through one

[00:13:19] I went I'll take you out for

[00:13:21] Christmas lunch and did that and then got in this massive fight stupidly where I kind of push back on the idea of having a child

[00:13:29] On all days christmas day where she's missing her daughter. I go yeah, not quite sure about that and it and again

[00:13:36] It kind of dragged out of me so much to do with why I was resistant which was very much

[00:13:43] From my own background my own upbringing and revealed that I had a lot of

[00:13:48] You know shit to solve that was kind of buried there before I became a father or that's impossible

[00:13:54] You don't resolve your ship before you become a father. It's alive ongoing. Yes 50 year improvisation

[00:14:00] As they're staring at you you're going now, but I suppose that

[00:14:04] The lure for guys is to go oh wait till you know that old age our wait time ready and then I'll do it and of course

[00:14:11] You can't even get ready

[00:14:13] By the doing through the doing it's fascinating why we do that to go on not ready or I need to do some things before like we set up so many

[00:14:24] Rules which I think were personally I don't know everybody who haven't met everyone in the world and no

[00:14:30] Most of my good. I can't tell you it's just that I think most roads are just lead to vulnerability of some sort to go

[00:14:40] I

[00:14:41] What's going to happen to me what's going to happen to my needs?

[00:14:45] How do I do I not have you exclusively as my partner anymore?

[00:14:49] I think a lot of men are challenged by that that sharing aspect of it and it freaks them out

[00:14:55] And so you know you push back on it for as long as you possibly can which in Robbins case was you know you got 10 minutes to resolve this

[00:15:04] From out

[00:15:07] Now I know your you mentioned your own upbringing a lot of the time when we you know we think about

[00:15:14] Faluing it's obviously like well there was

[00:15:16] We're part of a chain and you'll back at yours. I know you did not have a relationship with your dad is that's a

[00:15:23] Thing because then you have an empty playbook and a lot of people inherit a playbook

[00:15:28] Yeah, or at least can keep some things but it's not it was in the case

[00:15:31] Well I had a playbook

[00:15:33] But it involved several criminal charges and

[00:15:38] You know

[00:15:40] The book yeah, I kind of my yeah my I was strange from my father for probably from

[00:15:49] The age of 12

[00:15:53] up until

[00:15:56] maybe 30

[00:15:59] With sporadic contact in between he was very violent. He was I had a

[00:16:06] Very heavy

[00:16:08] Home life of domestic violence

[00:16:10] He was very violent with my mother which culminated in

[00:16:16] him trying to take her life when I was 12 and

[00:16:22] so

[00:16:24] which you know

[00:16:27] the

[00:16:28] Destruction obviously that that that happens in a family when that occurs and to children

[00:16:36] is you know enormous and and the repercussions

[00:16:40] You don't understand or we don't come to turn you know you have to try and come to terms with well into your adult life to realize

[00:16:47] What that's done so common but children unfortunately we don't know

[00:16:53] You accept your reality and you don't know there's another reality

[00:16:57] So the horrible thing for people that are suffering in

[00:17:01] situations of domestic violence is

[00:17:03] They learn this behavior the same way you learn all the good traits of

[00:17:07] Parenting and your environment is what you're soaking in and your learning perspective that's how you communicate

[00:17:12] Oh, that's how you communicate that's how you

[00:17:16] Empathize that's how you and so I

[00:17:19] Against this backdrop

[00:17:21] Struggle in relationships

[00:17:23] I was you know classic I was kind of naughty at high school as a result acted out did all that sort of stuff

[00:17:29] I was fortunate without Flufferman Pellets too much is not a smart enough to still get

[00:17:35] Through high school and through

[00:17:37] Life to to to to figure out a way through

[00:17:40] Throughout a way through but I could be a smart us on the on the way through but I was terrified you know like

[00:17:46] You terrified what you do with that backdrop

[00:17:49] You know, I remember being in a biology class and then talking about genetics

[00:17:54] I was in like you know and or something and me just absolutely screaming at the teacher

[00:17:59] And this explosion of kind of rage because out of the thought of if it's genetics

[00:18:04] I'm like I mean, I'm and you're saying this no, I'm not out there

[00:18:09] And stormed out of the class and

[00:18:11] That was the you know probably the start of a realizing that I'm absolutely riddled with fear and

[00:18:20] Terran and how to work this out and in mind the first of all heart breaking for you for your obviously for your mom for your family

[00:18:31] And

[00:18:32] As you're saying and I'm the the ripple effect of the trauma is the thing that compounds the tragedy because you've

[00:18:39] This little you're this kid that doesn't know any any other world

[00:18:44] You know one the devastating effects of domestic violence is that chain is the chain reaction and the ripple effect

[00:18:49] But now the man that I know like you clearly found a way many ways to break that chain

[00:18:55] It's obviously not sure because

[00:18:58] such a

[00:19:00] caring and loving human being and and person and

[00:19:04] And I suppose my question is like you know for anyone

[00:19:08] Listening or worried or that has that that that concern of being involved in in the situation like that

[00:19:13] Where did you look to to get your north stars to to move away from that or to know that that isn't who you are and and

[00:19:22] You can re-learn or learn for the first time

[00:19:25] You know behaviors that aren't that don't have to be imprinted from what you've seen

[00:19:29] Well, I had and

[00:19:31] One of the three you know pillars that you kind of ask when I was thinking about that and this relates to that as one of them was levity and

[00:19:41] what I

[00:19:42] learnt in an instinct of mine

[00:19:46] Was to make light of the situation and that was survival. I've realized in hindsight was to

[00:19:53] Make a joke out of something to create levity in any situation and that might not be levity with my father because that was kind of impenetrable

[00:20:00] You know he would

[00:20:02] He would be silent for three weeks and not talk after a violent outburst and so you had no way of being with this

[00:20:08] Person that could work but what I could do is I could make a joke with the rest of my family

[00:20:13] I could find a way to lance the

[00:20:17] Horrible nature of it and it's very common for people in our industry if you trace back there's many

[00:20:22] People in the entertainment industry that have developed a skill to the tragedy in comedy course

[00:20:27] Yeah, yeah to try and try and do that and so

[00:20:30] I think I found some traction early

[00:20:35] And what levity does what human does in some ways is it allows you to start talking about an area of vulnerability

[00:20:41] In a light-hearted way. You often good jokes or good things point to something in the middle

[00:20:47] That's uncomfortable that we know is uncomfortable, but I make light of it and suddenly we go

[00:20:52] Well, that's funny and the reason there's an outburst is because there's some kind of relief that we've gone there in some way and and

[00:21:00] I think I tapped into that early then I was fortunate that

[00:21:04] Somebody saw me in high school

[00:21:07] A teacher kind of highlighted that when I reckon that naughty kid is actually probably a little bit of an entainer and there and if I sort of

[00:21:15] Encourage that and try and draw that out of him

[00:21:19] Which he did took him a couple years to get me in the you know school production because I said

[00:21:23] You know wasn't for wasn't for blocs to come do a theater show

[00:21:29] She thank God he did

[00:21:33] Amazing and

[00:21:34] Look that's become the family business you know

[00:21:37] Everything that I've kind of involved myself in and everything I make with Robin we make you know

[00:21:42] shows

[00:21:43] content together and it's all

[00:21:46] Basically about

[00:21:48] Connection

[00:21:48] Everything we write seems to be about putting disparate parties together up a middle bog and all of

[00:21:53] And forcing them to be with each other and then go for somehow find a way to be with each other and using it through

[00:21:58] Some form of humor find a way to bridge the gap yeah, yeah, and I should say I want to be clear to say that that

[00:22:05] Is no quick transformation like you know? I did a decade of therapy because I

[00:22:13] Just naturally just struggled in relationships. I just struggled into

[00:22:19] Not be vulnerable when I think now there's so much attention on

[00:22:23] domestic violence male violence and

[00:22:26] The to try and get to the core of what is it in men that

[00:22:33] Causes this breakdown this lashing out and personally you have to I had to explore why am I

[00:22:40] Why am I so defensive in so many situations? Why is my first port of call in an argument to go not

[00:22:44] I didn't I did a total aggressively pushback and that's not to be aggressive even that's just to

[00:22:51] aggressively have a point of view

[00:22:52] that doesn't

[00:22:55] Enhanced the relationship it's destructive

[00:22:58] But I realized I'm so I was so quick to be defensive and

[00:23:04] Basically because I felt vulnerable and then you're gonna work out why why am I my my my my my my

[00:23:08] Monobal in this situation and you know I have an amazing wife who was you know

[00:23:13] Incredibly patient

[00:23:16] She wasn't the therapist

[00:23:18] That sounds like who who

[00:23:21] Pushed to go no no I'm not saying that you know this is on you

[00:23:24] This is you it's in your head

[00:23:26] You need to sort that out you need to think about why you're reacting that way and

[00:23:30] I thought safe enough with her and that's I think a key for for is to somehow start to feel safe

[00:23:38] In relationship so that you the vulnerability can just sit there for a while and you can start sorting out to go why don't have this behavior

[00:23:45] Why am I doing that you know

[00:23:47] But that didn't come quietly and I think that's what I wanted to stress before to say

[00:23:52] You know this change and people should give them cuts itself some slack and go this can take a long long time

[00:23:58] You know

[00:23:59] I sat there with a therapist at first and I was so young and stupid that I sat there in a 50 minute

[00:24:07] You know psychotherapy session set up like this and she would look at me and she wasn't a talker

[00:24:12] with psychotherapy so it's like waiting for me to talk and I would just get so angry that I would sit there for 50 minutes or not talk to her

[00:24:20] And she just

[00:24:22] pleasantly just look at me and

[00:24:24] It was

[00:24:25] Basically she was smart enough

[00:24:27] Well, you know to look and go you need to just do whatever you need to do

[00:24:32] Just let it happen on your

[00:24:34] And it just like any but then with the child to go you need to feel safe

[00:24:39] You need to feel safe enough to start talking

[00:24:43] I feel like I need to say thank you first of all Wayne for like you put it so eloquently

[00:24:47] But I know this is not an easy thing to share and this is but I know you're saying this stuff because you know the kind of people that listen to this and

[00:24:56] There's a lot of young dads there's a lot of people that aren't dads yet that there's a lot of women listen to this

[00:25:01] But in that time in their life that I think it's such an in that such a

[00:25:05] immensely valuable thing I reckon for young guys to hear that

[00:25:10] A that you went through something that from when it'd be it is not a quick fix see it's okay

[00:25:16] That I have all the humanness of those feelings and that you

[00:25:21] What interested in changing it and that you did change you ended up in such a different place

[00:25:25] And that it's not easy and it's not immediate but it's much better than the alternative which is not doing anything

[00:25:31] That's right and and to just lean into those impulses that we have

[00:25:37] And to go it's it's easy to just be adamant and to back that and go that's who I am and that's you know

[00:25:42] That's that's it's very hard to arrest that and to and it takes us as

[00:25:48] Strong courageous person to go no no, I'm gonna actually sit down and do the work and it requires a lot of a lot of hard

[00:25:54] Work that goes on and I did want to say that and it look I won't lie

[00:25:58] I felt incredibly vulnerable coming and talking about this and again

[00:26:04] Beautiful robbers going yeah, of course, you know, you're gonna feel vulnerable that's fine

[00:26:08] And you don't have to do it if you don't want to but gee it would be good for other meant here some of your experiences

[00:26:12] And it's kind of right and I listen to your and you know

[00:26:15] This is an incredible form that you've created

[00:26:17] But I listened to you know the podcast and sometimes I hear my experience was hearing and you're such an incredible

[00:26:25] Farther-hame issue the adventures you go on make me feel you know

[00:26:31] Like I haven't left the couch in my whole life. It's extraordinary the experiences you're providing for your children

[00:26:38] You know it breaks my heart to think what the connection you must have with them

[00:26:42] You know of course by comparison I project myself into that but

[00:26:45] I listen and think geez, I'd love to say to some men

[00:26:49] Hey before you even get to the capacity to go young and I go out and teach you skills and do stuff

[00:26:56] You might just need to go and do the work on yourself and that will be a gift to your child like if you can get stuck into

[00:27:03] yourself they will benefit so much from the work that you do and I think that's with my daughters as what I've tried to do is to

[00:27:12] Do as much work on myself as possible and to be as open about who I am with them so they see me what's in all

[00:27:19] And at least if they see a man who's being on it trying to be honest and trying to go you know

[00:27:25] I feel like this sorry I reacted terribly in that moment. I didn't listen to you that's because I'm just

[00:27:32] Don't want to hear what you got to say I'm too frightened for you to have that experience whatever it is

[00:27:37] To try and be full and you know their adults now. We're not talking about dads you got

[00:27:41] You've got four-year-olds don't try this opportunity to have a different this will be tough if you pause blue

[00:27:47] I'm sorry but what a gift though that you are giving them to do that and I couldn't agree more like and I also think yes

[00:27:54] It's it's fun to talk about counting trips and stuff but the at the heart of it

[00:27:58] I couldn't agree more with what you're saying like if you want to help encourage these little people

[00:28:02] Will grow I firmly believe through these conversations to like the best thing you can do is work on yourself and and so many of our guests have said in different ways of

[00:28:11] It's modeling it's emulation yeah, that's what they they're not gonna remember what you said

[00:28:17] They'll remember how you feet have they felt in your presence and they'll automatically through

[00:28:23] Thousands and thousands of hours of iteration they'll pick up your

[00:28:27] Bavius and they'll pick up your habits and

[00:28:30] It's the it's the model and the more you work you can do in yourself the better model you are obviously presenting

[00:28:35] Again super easy to say but as you said a 50 year

[00:28:42] Improvisational workshop to get it done that's right and it can become quite

[00:28:48] A comfort in the end to go that just never stop so you can have hard conversations with your children right through into out-hold

[00:28:57] And

[00:28:58] To be open enough to go, you know, it's great. I think our girls are it's great. They're funny as well

[00:29:04] You can have great chats. They use humor back on us lightning quick to point and poke the bear

[00:29:10] I mean, I've only

[00:29:12] Spend a bit of time with you because briefly, but I'm also we're like, you know, they're

[00:29:16] Your eldest is a really accomplished performer and you know, she's a very very funny talented performer

[00:29:22] I look at them both and I'm like man impressive impressive young women like

[00:29:27] There even from when I had met them in my jungle like really mature for their age and I guess that

[00:29:34] I would assume that comes from this family environment of very deep honesty and connection

[00:29:41] Yeah, an emotional

[00:29:45] honesty of

[00:29:46] Making them feel safe in the same ways to go it's safe giving them a long lead to go you know

[00:29:52] When you're saying to experience something don't you know, I've heard this on the podcast

[00:29:56] A lot of just great as that fix at mentality stop trying to fix it just listen just just try and listen

[00:30:01] So hard

[00:30:03] So hard because we just

[00:30:06] Still that voice in my head going

[00:30:08] Sure, I can't I what if I could fix this again

[00:30:11] I feel like I know you meant not fix but I

[00:30:15] Yeah, could fix this. This could be down and dusted by about six p.m. And we could be watching a move

[00:30:20] So come on let me just talk you through it. I mean on safety you mentioned that a few times

[00:30:25] um

[00:30:27] How do you and how did you provide a safe environment for your girls? What what did that mean to you?

[00:30:35] It meant listening and and again Robin's been a leader in the family an emotional leader in that

[00:30:42] She has repeatedly told me you know once we've closed the bedroom door just listen just just listen to what they're saying

[00:30:50] So that's that has been the key

[00:30:55] because

[00:30:55] You can see people's

[00:30:59] I think the I don't know I'm gonna turn into a percentage. I don't know what the percentage would be

[00:31:02] Just by people speaking and being heard

[00:31:06] People relax people half of the problem is gone just by voicing it and it's this

[00:31:13] spooky thing and it never ceases to amaze me I can

[00:31:17] Walk around I can feel that I'm anxious in some way I now I'm fortunate enough to clock that to go do

[00:31:24] I'm being anxious about that. Gunspect Robin about it because I know that as soon as it's aired

[00:31:29] Most of it will be gone and she doesn't need to reply and go would you need to do this or that?

[00:31:34] It's somehow

[00:31:35] There up a strict insist just wait just get it out and so with the girls it's letting them have the experience then and then say

[00:31:43] Create that space and that's hard because in teenage years they're

[00:31:49] Prewired to not want to bring you something so it becomes even more challenging to go

[00:31:54] I'll push back because they want to start to separate and they need to start to separate so

[00:31:59] That's even harder to

[00:32:01] Something I mean, I'm just having genuine personal and just for what I'm sure a lot of our listeners do

[00:32:07] Because I'm my you know my little voice is to intend

[00:32:11] Like I'm on the cast now. I'm always you know, I'm bright that's like when I'm looking forward to teenage years and of course we want

[00:32:17] You just hope that you've done enough that when there is something they can bring it to you and there is that feeling of safety in the teenage years

[00:32:23] Did you feel like you had that with your moments where you felt like you

[00:32:28] Losing it and and you needed to

[00:32:31] Help get it back on track. There were definitely moments where I've just messed it up entirely

[00:32:37] I did feel confident with Robin

[00:32:40] When a lot of parents when you get parents that say

[00:32:44] Clayshays to you. Oh, they're coming up to 16 it's gonna be a terrible in a minute

[00:32:48] It's gonna be you wait you wait I can't stand it when people project

[00:32:54] Onto the go well you don't know me and you don't know the relationship and you know

[00:32:57] Who says it needs to be the worst thing in the world? I did and we had a really good time in that teenage years you know to together

[00:33:07] I push back on that thing that automatically has to be rebellious of course

[00:33:12] You're gonna have separation that's the right rights of passage and that is

[00:33:18] involves intense feelings

[00:33:20] But it doesn't mean it needs to be

[00:33:23] Right sure so that we're yeah, no, it doesn't need to be combative. It doesn't need to be you know all I hate you I'm storming off

[00:33:29] So as those big feelings that had happened what what was your

[00:33:33] I mean do you remember having a

[00:33:35] You know whether it's like a

[00:33:37] Man for a policy to be like this. Okay, this is how I'm gonna be of assistance here

[00:33:43] I think create the time like yeah that the time to sit

[00:33:48] simple

[00:33:50] Things we had dinner at the table

[00:33:52] Yeah for years and years

[00:33:55] In all the time

[00:33:57] We were laughing because it's only recently that they're grown up now and post high school

[00:34:02] Was the first time we wrote a show where we had a night scene in it because we wrote everything

[00:34:07] To be home for dinner

[00:34:09] And it was a commitment really to to

[00:34:12] Go that we need to have that time and create the space where

[00:34:17] conversation might come and

[00:34:20] My memory of teenage years is there was many times where you know

[00:34:24] One of the girls would go I'll clean up and the other one would be in the midst of talking about something quite big and there would be

[00:34:31] It would move to you know we might sit there for another hour and the other

[00:34:35] Childhood looking go can I get a my room because this isn't about me. I'm feeling okay at the moment

[00:34:40] And do that but we've set that comes to mind as through that period

[00:34:44] We there was a space that everybody obviously knew and it didn't come quite late

[00:34:50] It was like me in therapy and so much I was just like with things through a dinner you could see them going then I want to talk

[00:34:55] And you know Robin had a very good watch always has a very

[00:34:58] good way of

[00:35:02] Listening the emotions from the girls and I had to take that lead because there is also an issue

[00:35:07] I think with fathers with daughters to go where do I slot in those years and how do I negotiate that

[00:35:15] space and

[00:35:16] You know I would look and go Robin can get to the heart of a matter in it like a nano second

[00:35:21] It's like half a sentence and they're crying and hugging her and I go you know

[00:35:24] I have to have a 30 minute awkward

[00:35:26] How is your day and and dig away at it but

[00:35:30] Over time did you fight did you find more of a role or more of a yeah? Yeah, I found a way to be myself

[00:35:37] That wasn't Robin. I think for a moment. I tried to could have copied that or and if I'm honest

[00:35:43] I probably end it you know and and and try to

[00:35:48] Have something similar but to me a world of fine my own way of being really interesting again a great example of the fact that these are not

[00:35:56] As you say it's a constantly evolving

[00:36:00] Improvisation yes and you so yeah admirable. I think it's interesting that you like caught yourself going

[00:36:06] I'm trying to be something new here because you've never had a girl this age so you

[00:36:12] Have enough go putting a mask on putting a trying in your hat. Yeah, and you got to come back to being yourself one of the best

[00:36:19] periods I had as an example of that was Emily

[00:36:23] A youngest daughter she

[00:36:26] Went she was learning to drive and that started during the pandemic and

[00:36:32] When I go there's something we can do during this and so we spent a hundred and me in Victoria you have to do 120 hours of driving before you get lost these days

[00:36:43] You do when I got my pays you I did an hour and a quarter one less than the RSV

[00:36:49] Thank you

[00:36:51] Funnie I'm very supportive of the new have a bit more experience law yeah totally, but the brilliant part of it was we've spent 120 hours

[00:37:01] I saw that and

[00:37:03] you

[00:37:04] Have to move through the nice cities of trying to be a dad and trying to go

[00:37:10] Having quick conversations to just hours and hours and I really liked it because I

[00:37:16] felt like we created a space where it was here we are as adults and here where I wear there's can be silence

[00:37:25] He's where we naturally drift into something of interest and so that was a real time of

[00:37:32] Forced listening yeah, I really liked that because it's it makes you realize too like yes

[00:37:37] Going out for dinner or having like a special

[00:37:40] Night hour yeah, that is time together, but if you're hoping for something all the best stuff is stumbled upon

[00:37:46] Yeah, and when you have 120 hours you open yourself up to stumble on something a lot more than if it's a

[00:37:53] If it's enough to know and it's not confrontation. You're not you're side by side

[00:37:56] So you're not looking at each other in the eye which diffuses

[00:38:00] It a lot you can be distracted but look up put your hands on the wheel like you can you can

[00:38:04] Muck around with the driving and we had a chip it's great because she she's so

[00:38:09] Bolshean determined since she was a baby, but you know she gets in the card of first lesson and puts the radio on you know

[00:38:16] Plugs up phone in puts Spotify on turns the music up puts one hand on the wheel turns me go you ready

[00:38:23] And I was like put both hands on the wheel turn the music off and

[00:38:28] You're not having music till the 80th ideal is that's our area. Our celebration

[00:38:32] It was the deal

[00:38:35] And it was you know probably selfishly to go so being creates a

[00:38:38] Compensation before we turn the music on but again, it's like we sometimes I went off and think when we're doing this like you just come back to like the

[00:38:46] Couple of these simple

[00:38:48] That seems so

[00:38:49] obvious that it almost doesn't want saying but it's like the more time you spend

[00:38:54] The less pressure there is to have a breakthrough. It's because if it was like hey, we're gonna

[00:38:59] We've got one hour let's catch up. Yeah

[00:39:02] You freeze up with the pressure of trying to have a moment

[00:39:05] It's probably why something like the old daddy daughter camping trip was invented that people have to go on because it's like all for

[00:39:12] 20 for hours you just have to be around each other yeah and

[00:39:15] Probably the sad part is like as the kids get older like you just don't get that

[00:39:19] Exposure to each other anymore

[00:39:21] You don't you fence it off or make it happen. No, and well in some ways you got to let it go

[00:39:26] You've got to go that's gone any moved out of home

[00:39:30] And it really hit me because it was you know Molly had moved out years ago

[00:39:34] But her moving out really struck me because I

[00:39:38] Been loving the last couple of years as an adult because it's a different hold-in relationship

[00:39:44] She's funny. She's interesting. She's going to uni. She's doing arts. She's engaged in all these all this thought and I'm

[00:39:51] Watching this incredible woman and we get on really well and she's around the house incidentally and you're

[00:39:58] What are your making cooking so great caulk and

[00:40:02] So having this relationship and then she goes I'm moving out and go, what do you mean we're going really well?

[00:40:08] We're thinking we have mine together. This is what's not to like

[00:40:12] You know, I think it feels like a break up. This is terrible

[00:40:17] And then but it's was perfect because I wasn't ready so it's a perfect it was obviously

[00:40:24] An absolutely perfect decision on her part because she surprised me by being ready and being ready to go

[00:40:31] See that's interesting for you. Did you find that that's a pattern throughout your kids lives where

[00:40:35] They would surprise you by suddenly being ready more often than not

[00:40:39] They would they would present the

[00:40:43] updated version of themselves to me and have to go oh, I told you

[00:40:47] I'm thinking like this now and it'd be like oh, yes, I'm not

[00:40:51] It's weird how you

[00:40:54] You kind of you have to I mean undo your connection to the old version and then yeah and let them develop let them be

[00:41:00] Different at each point and and kind of become interested in it again. Don't presume that you know that this

[00:41:06] Growing person, you know

[00:41:08] I did yesterday but what's today's version what experience have you had and how to be present in that

[00:41:14] You know I'm still marvelling at this stuff where you go you know we're on a with the family text chain that's been going for a decade

[00:41:21] That's just adorable. I want to make it into a book one day, but we've never been allowed to publish it because it's scandalous

[00:41:27] But you know being arranged to meet me met at Marios in

[00:41:32] They're both live over that type of town now we met there and and just meeting your kids after work

[00:41:38] And they both roll in separately

[00:41:40] It's just a bizarre feeling. It's just it's just a great these adults are coming

[00:41:44] How is your day what was it like to go we were at the kitchen table the minute ago for

[00:41:48] Two decades and now we're I don't know adults in the world and boy, I mean if there's ever a people lucky enough to still have kids at the kitchen

[00:41:56] Do you ever a moment ago

[00:41:58] It's safer. It's not infinite. No, no, it's not I'm sorry rewinding quickly

[00:42:05] levity was one of your big three things. Oh, yes, what are your other two they're all else?

[00:42:12] It's more it's more important to be catching it

[00:42:16] Holy pops no really you want that

[00:42:18] mechanical

[00:42:21] Listening which I said you know we touched on before and because that's been such a

[00:42:26] Again my personal you know kind of

[00:42:30] Understanding as a person it's is involved listening and empathy and I think that goes back to you know

[00:42:35] My father was absolutely incapable of this. I don't know what the third one is but already the first two without

[00:42:41] Presumison anything about the situation was it's the complete it's the answer

[00:42:45] What was going yeah, yeah and love is the third so and I think there was a

[00:42:51] major gap in that as well

[00:42:55] There were there were fragments of

[00:42:57] Love I mean it's very strange. I'm many I don't know what people's experience again. I wouldn't speak to that but

[00:43:03] It's very complicated coming out of a relationship with a violent father

[00:43:09] Because you naturally try and piece together a version of love in the relationship that you had even though it was

[00:43:15] Destructed it was such a deep need exactly we all need to be loved

[00:43:19] You comb over these moments to go. Oh, no, I had a habit with the tiny bits of connection there and then

[00:43:28] You know

[00:43:29] Again a big part of the work is to go hang on. It's much much more than that and you can be

[00:43:34] You know it's much more expansive and so you come out of this thing with this tiny little slither of

[00:43:40] A relationship and

[00:43:42] somehow you've got to build that out to be

[00:43:45] To go I think there's more. I think there's more to it. You haven't had the example yourself but you've you know through

[00:43:51] Other relationships

[00:43:53] Great part of that again

[00:43:55] I was kind of led to in thoughts to go stop going. Oh, I missed out on that

[00:44:00] By my dad you can get those things from other people you can get you can get those fatherly qualities from

[00:44:09] Where did you look do you have any that's down there? Oh, yeah. I mean

[00:44:14] My town odd but you can get it in your personal relationship with your wife

[00:44:17] You can get that sense of what are the qualities of being a good father listening loving being attentive

[00:44:24] Being present making someone feel safe their human qualities they're not just

[00:44:30] You know unique to me and they're and I found that mind blind to go. Oh, right

[00:44:35] I can have that in friendships

[00:44:37] I can I can ask of the things that I wanted

[00:44:41] Which is you know what do you want from a dad? I want someone who's

[00:44:45] Got me in their mind or you know that I can rely on to go. Yeah, they think of me

[00:44:49] It's one of the things I try and do with the girls all the time is subtly try to let them know

[00:44:54] That they're in my mind because I think that's one of the most powerful things you can do with their relationship

[00:44:59] Example because I love that oh in you know in primary school at was the you know the classic notes in the lunch box

[00:45:05] They're trying to write something funny trying to do something like that now

[00:45:07] It's the family text trying to go any excuse to bowl a joke in is it is a way to let somebody know

[00:45:15] At 11 o'clock this morning when we're all out and about and I don't know what you're doing

[00:45:18] I thought of you and I want you, you know

[00:45:21] I'm disguising in and whatever in a chat. I can have but what's at the heart of it is I want to let you know

[00:45:27] That I'm thinking about you because you that idea that a kid could be they're going

[00:45:32] Oh, wow my dad's thinking of me and I'm and what I'm into as important to him is a concept that was obviously not something that was present for you

[00:45:41] But the giving of it

[00:45:44] How does the giving of it compare to you know that you imagine the receiving of it is?

[00:45:48] Oh, it's terrific. I mean, it's it's it's it's it's a peeling experience, you know

[00:45:52] But then to do that is to have this more much more complete self and

[00:45:58] You know from that what I know is it gives it's going to give them self confidence, you know to the young people

[00:46:05] When they feel loved when we feel loved our confidence is affected and who we are in the world is is

[00:46:12] I think as a direct relationship in how we're able to manage anxiety stress hardship

[00:46:18] I mean if there's a core of of our well no matter what happens

[00:46:23] I know someone thinks of me

[00:46:26] Thinks the world of me but always be there for me. I think that hasn't you know enormous impact

[00:46:31] I mean I couldn't agree more

[00:46:34] One thing that I may reckon comes up for guys and I've fallen to this trip to is there's like I want my kids to

[00:46:40] Intensely know that I love them and it's and it's unconditional

[00:46:42] You know at the same time that sometimes runs into

[00:46:45] But I want you to do X

[00:46:49] You catch yourself going I am trying to slightly bend your behavior here

[00:46:53] Because I love you but then I reckon sometimes I I personally am like I go too far

[00:46:57] I'm like this isn't really unconditional. I'm I'm trying to adjust something

[00:47:01] But of course because we're all filled with our own

[00:47:04] Influent no own fears

[00:47:07] It's but at that place out and that's and I think we've got to give ourselves a break and go that's part of

[00:47:14] Parenting is that it's going to bring up but are you available?

[00:47:18] Abil in those moments sometimes to catch yourself to go. Why am I so fixated on that or?

[00:47:24] It might not be as strong as a fixation, but why is that top of mind all the time in the moment? I've missed it

[00:47:29] But I have definitely afterwards gone. Okay

[00:47:31] That was bad. That was a fail from me and

[00:47:34] You try and what always amazes me is and terrifies me a bit but

[00:47:40] Is the

[00:47:41] How powerful a misstep can be or or a harsh word?

[00:47:45] Yeah, or a you know if I'm being really asked the worst I would ever have done is probably make them feel like they are being disappointing

[00:47:53] When I was probably trying to correct a behavior but then I look back and I go now I reckon

[00:47:58] I was just words words words words words there which they won't remember

[00:48:01] But what they'll take away from is that I did I was wrong or I was I was a I was a disappointment

[00:48:07] And that's the last thing I want to feel like obviously so I have those moments and then yeah

[00:48:12] It's a bit to let me kind of come back to it. What I am amazed by those are how often your kids will be and you know I've got 10 and a six year old

[00:48:20] How often they'll be like yeah now or is I

[00:48:23] We I get it. I love you. I forgive you. Yeah, no, so I'm it melts you because sometimes you don't feel like you

[00:48:28] As soon as you feel like you mess it up so badly you don't really deserve you let off the hook

[00:48:32] That easily but yeah

[00:48:34] It's that the power of a

[00:48:37] Crushing word I I remember it from my childhood and you just never want to be that to your kids, but I

[00:48:44] Yeah, I've recon sometimes. I have strayed that way do you

[00:48:48] Do you are you able to reflect on that and go why did I you know

[00:48:53] Have any instincts to why that you've framed it in a way that what do I present that has been you were disappointing in some way?

[00:48:59] Yeah, like

[00:49:00] Do you have that space to go?

[00:49:02] Definitely what and and so I know I do it a lot to you know the post the post post post a day before

[00:49:08] Yeah, where we

[00:49:10] And it's so invoked have a partner like that as you've got with Rob you know

[00:49:14] It's often I was trying to communicate far too at all a concept that's probably my years fault to attend your old or a

[00:49:20] six year old

[00:49:21] Like and and I've just let all my worries and securities get like run away with me and

[00:49:27] You know you wouldn't ever gonna change them anyway

[00:49:30] So what you should have just been is loving and listening in the moment and I

[00:49:35] Green in that debriefing moment one thing I've

[00:49:38] Really tried to do and again it probably goes back to

[00:49:42] This never happened with me

[00:49:44] Is to have the debrief chat with Robin then go okay

[00:49:48] I'll be back in a minute walk down the hallway knock on the door and go can I come in?

[00:49:54] I'm sorry

[00:49:54] I just said this to you and the reason I said it and again this is when the girls are more in their teen adult life

[00:50:04] Is because I was feeling worried about this yeah, I try and there's honest with my vulnerability with them

[00:50:10] Which is the hardest thing to do to go I fucked up there because I

[00:50:17] Come up short what you're doing makes me feel

[00:50:21] worried insecure angry and I gave that back to you and I'm really sorry about that

[00:50:27] But give you a context why I think that's the most useful thing into to build out the relationship again and to go he's

[00:50:35] A full human thing. I you know trying to is to go stop just trying to be mister

[00:50:41] Instruction or mister

[00:50:43] Facilitate her but present yourself as the full human being that you are not just this version of dad in your head

[00:50:50] Like you're a person and then now looking at you as a person and if you can be really honest about who you are

[00:50:55] I think that will have an enormous impact

[00:50:58] You know

[00:50:59] In the many years to come but yeah, what a gift. I mean there were people listening this being like you know

[00:51:05] That what I get for a dad to be able to

[00:51:09] And then said the example to go this is what you would like the men in their lives to be like that's right

[00:51:16] Yeah, I want that for whatever relationships they have

[00:51:21] With men or women to go you know

[00:51:24] As well problem and I say as expect nothing less like this is the benchmark you know go the you should expect this in in other humans, you know the

[00:51:33] The fullest version you possibly can get and I think that's secretly what we're you know wanting for both of them

[00:51:39] You know as if as a dad you just constantly going

[00:51:43] I am you we are setting the benchmark yeah, and my poor behavior sets it long and my open and yeah

[00:51:50] Inclusive behavior hopefully sets it high yeah, yeah

[00:51:54] I have one tiny quick question one. Yes. I want I want our swan at somebody who had to be dragged to have fatherhood myself

[00:52:01] Because of fear

[00:52:03] You added seven years you touched on it briefly. Oh, yeah. Can you remember back to

[00:52:09] Maybe you thought I have I have Molly I don't need to

[00:52:12] Revisit because that was thrust upon you but then when you had to make the active choice of then

[00:52:18] Having another kid was that difficult to move through that threshold or it was it was until like everything with Robin

[00:52:26] It's hard until the instant that it's

[00:52:29] Spoken of and then it's not I'd love her dearly for a capacity to kind of see me as an and see me and being vulnerable

[00:52:37] And go to a Kai

[00:52:39] It's okay to be that and usually because of that I inevitably feel safe enough to go I can't jump off the cliff or what I perceive as a cliff

[00:52:47] I mean it's weird that I even describe it as that that I'm leaping off a cliff is fatherhood that's probably fairly telling

[00:52:53] But you saw it as a cliff, but then when once you jumped

[00:52:57] You know when you look back at the cliff

[00:53:00] Was it a cliff? No, it wasn't it was challenging. It was challenging as a guy

[00:53:06] Robin had a successful radio career

[00:53:11] Successful career she's always been brilliant and worked a lot but when the first few years when Emily was born she was doing radio

[00:53:19] Commercial radio and I was an I'm looking after Emily and

[00:53:25] Sure as

[00:53:26] Fuckest you modern guy go, yeah, yeah, I'm totally up for that. No, I'm not I'm I'm pissed off and I'm at home and I feel

[00:53:34] inept and like I'm not

[00:53:38] Wait, I'm hang on. I'm supposed to be in the entertainment industry. I'm supposed to be doing these things where's my

[00:53:43] So I had to confront all of that so it started being easy then it continuously threw up

[00:53:49] stuff for me

[00:53:51] To kind of deal with to go how is this and

[00:53:55] I had to work through that I loved that period it was incredible we we made this amazing

[00:54:00] Connection together in amongst me going this is in vain if I have to sit

[00:54:05] Rolling around on the floor with lego for another three hours. I'm gonna stab myself in the eye with a piece of it like

[00:54:12] But this is this living and then you go yes, it is it's it's it's amazing experience

[00:54:17] Again, it was Robin that at one point where I was pissing and moaning about it we'll do something about it

[00:54:23] Why is it everyone else's response no one's response but it's your responsibility what else do you want to do

[00:54:28] It's up to you to

[00:54:29] Expand yourself what do you want to do no me mowing you mowing right something well right it

[00:54:35] And you know I went when that's I went and started riding a

[00:54:39] Shocorkaw very small business with my friend Garmic Africa right did that and so

[00:54:46] I would never want to paint it as you know

[00:54:50] Oh, yeah, I came into this understanding and then it was smooth sailing with me. It's always been this

[00:54:55] Opening up of oh his 10 new problems because of

[00:54:59] Expanding yourself it presents more of myself more

[00:55:03] You you suddenly become you shortcomings become very apparent when you have a child

[00:55:07] Because this you're confronted all day every day and you can't be just

[00:55:12] Funny or pretend you're in work mode or any of that. It's like them just

[00:55:17] Pour again pulling it out of you, you know, but again think like I you know

[00:55:20] Thank you for

[00:55:22] Your honesty and you'll ruin us about that because I think that's and that would be an easy thing

[00:55:28] One years later to recast

[00:55:30] As like yeah

[00:55:32] Yeah, I got over it and was cool and we managed it but I think it's so important for guys to hear that you know

[00:55:38] I think one of the super impressive things about you the whole ways like you

[00:55:43] Have continuously

[00:55:46] Lent into the these

[00:55:49] Insecurities that it was throwing up in you and the and that the you know

[00:55:52] I love how open you are with your

[00:55:54] How not easy it was yeah

[00:55:57] What I think especially you know that this issue and and I I

[00:56:00] When I contemplate going back to domestic violence one of the core issues

[00:56:04] I think there is a massive

[00:56:06] Problem with men with the insecurity about

[00:56:10] Gender equality and that we find it so confronting when women have power and

[00:56:17] Not so much for the two men I'm sitting with because you by no both of your partners and they have

[00:56:23] Rich full lives themselves but I think for men it's incredibly confronting

[00:56:27] We've we have been born into generations where we think we have the case of the cupboard

[00:56:32] Our expectation is that we do and then in this massive climate of change over the last

[00:56:39] 2030 it's ongoing

[00:56:41] Is being confronted with a reality that's not that and being it asked to change and I think for many of us

[00:56:47] It's really confronting and for some monorities it's going kicking and screaming

[00:56:53] Literally

[00:56:54] It's the resist that not the willingness to look in and therefore watching yeah, that's right

[00:56:59] Lashing out and and going no, it's it's about you you did this to me. No, no, no, they didn't yeah

[00:57:05] On a slight

[00:57:08] Sideways jump one thing I didn't get to but I would love to hear it

[00:57:12] Is the only other pace of homework is a gold standard pace of dating from

[00:57:16] somewhere else in life from friend of you know a TV dad whoever it may be

[00:57:22] That you look at and you go yes, great that's that's also someone doing it well

[00:57:26] It would be the gold stand was provided me was very fortunate about looking for a dad somewhere else was via Robbins dad

[00:57:36] beautiful jack who

[00:57:38] Pasta way at the end of last year after a very full and wonderful life

[00:57:42] He was an incredible guy and gave the gold standard to me he's very intelligent and he's very still

[00:57:51] It's very

[00:57:52] Confronting for me because again, he was another person who could sit down next to me

[00:57:56] Just be present. It's something you say that isn't it do you think stillness is a really dying are

[00:58:02] totaled my grandpa was the same and I just haven't been changed or like you know a couple a night to go at a dinner

[00:58:10] Who was and you know is in his 80s yep and it's that quality of stillness that maybe it comes with age

[00:58:17] But I worry that like with gone now that we have smartphones

[00:58:19] I think it's all a bit manic now and I find that in myself to go when when am I capable of just being still and jack was amazing in he

[00:58:29] He had the gold standard that I refer to is he's the follow-up question

[00:58:34] He's the master of the follow-up question and I realized how amazing it was

[00:58:39] He would we would visit and we would just discuss something and he would ask about so what's

[00:58:45] How's things going with the writing of that one what do you up to?

[00:58:49] Go I know we're just in development at the moment but we're doing this and yeah

[00:58:52] Stuck we're kind of between with an idea for an episode about something a month or so had passed and come in again

[00:58:58] You go had you get on with episode four

[00:59:01] You go what what was episode four you were talking about you had some problems with the with one of the ideas there

[00:59:08] Yeah, that one and after a while I went oh my god

[00:59:12] It's so moving that you

[00:59:14] Again have me in your mind

[00:59:17] It's not surprising to me that that is your gold standard because of course that

[00:59:22] That's someone proving they listened that listening and and go really listening like and going

[00:59:27] Oh, that's important to you so I'll remember it and I'll check back in

[00:59:31] And tiny time there's a tiny things in his life, you know

[00:59:34] I think the beautiful thing about the gold standard downing and we'll drawing up a list is

[00:59:40] The little things are the big things always little things are the big things because they

[00:59:47] It's

[00:59:47] Like we often say it's easy to do the grand gesture, but like you know remembering a month later

[00:59:52] That's not a trick. No that's real. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so that's the ghost

[00:59:56] But you and Robin play that out in all your relationships too one

[01:00:01] You guys ask more questions than anyone I've ever met

[01:00:03] And only half the time do I worry that it's tiny into a TV episode

[01:00:09] You guys are so beautiful of that you you always are interested in others more than yourself and

[01:00:14] leads to a richer life. I'm sure well I definitely does I find it I like

[01:00:19] Talking to people I like asking I found it hard being a bloke because I don't follow

[01:00:25] I have felt football are growing up and I don't follow sport a lot

[01:00:28] Haven't really done that and I found it challenging because what I do like talking about is going how you?

[01:00:34] What's going on what what what's happening in your life like

[01:00:37] Probably on an emotional level and I can see sometimes Robin or so

[01:00:40] Don't be so full on with the

[01:00:43] The scared the shit out of him. They don't want it and I got a knife, but I don't really have my child so my arsenal to talk about that's the thing

[01:00:49] I'm kind of skilled at I didn't watch the game, but how did you feel watching it go

[01:00:54] But of course I've been again having now even though they're very

[01:00:59] Quick summation of your sorry, they're just not surprising

[01:01:02] Because you're like what you want that's really interesting

[01:01:05] Yes, it's what I desire so that's what I followed

[01:01:09] You know and and that's why I love our work because that's an exploration of all of that as well

[01:01:14] Honestly interested in doing that and yeah, but you know go to the footy of press

[01:01:20] I should say

[01:01:22] I went this year third match in my life

[01:01:26] You you have a very creative family like you know that's just in your you and Robin have funny bones

[01:01:32] Having kids that are growing up being funny and being creative

[01:01:36] You know every kid is different every kid's funny in their own special way, but with it

[01:01:41] Things or habits or or

[01:01:43] Systems that you would have in place to allow them to to find that

[01:01:47] Um, to really interesting

[01:01:50] question it feels so organic in the family that the the language of the house

[01:01:57] is often comic in some way

[01:02:00] It feels safe it feels warm it feels

[01:02:05] joyous

[01:02:06] Again, it's it's somehow it sometimes it can poke at the vulnerability when we know we all use it with each other

[01:02:14] You know the girls they use human back on me to a lesser a full of emotional response and the example it comes to mind is when with my father

[01:02:23] I he was very very ill

[01:02:26] Terminal and in the end of his life and I was he was in Perth and I was called to go over

[01:02:31] Which was excruciating and I went over there and

[01:02:34] We decided to go have a family road trip in WA which was incredible so we did this road trip from Perth up to X-Mouth

[01:02:42] started in Perth where I had to see my father and I was

[01:02:46] Went into this nursing home and it was I hadn't seen him for years and the girls had never

[01:02:53] Molly had made him but Emily certainly hadn't she was young and the nurse said

[01:02:58] It's you know lunch time. Would you like to feed your father and it must like are you got to be

[01:03:03] Faking kidding me? I cannot pinch

[01:03:06] Yeah, come on. She's this lovely

[01:03:08] Jolly Scottish woman. So yeah, I jump up on the bed there and give him these easy apple sauce give him a

[01:03:13] App and I was like actually she's before I knew I was straddling him

[01:03:18] He could no longer speak can only grown and I'm feeding him apple sauce and I had this incredible urge where I thought I want to

[01:03:27] I felt like I want to punch you in the face like I I had this rage in me plus this compassion to kind of feed him

[01:03:36] Apple sauce anyway. I was an absolute mess after this

[01:03:41] Got back in this car and we started the journey up and I was in a terrible

[01:03:47] State a couldn't untangle what I couldn't process I couldn't know what to do so I was I think being

[01:03:52] So I'll keep probably maybe even a bit silent which was kind of terrifying because I was probably modeling some

[01:03:59] Behavior that I witnessed we got to

[01:04:02] Ningo Lou and we went to a little dinky

[01:04:06] Restright then it was my birthday and they arranged to have a cake from back of house the girl said

[01:04:13] I arranged that with Robin and came out and I was in such a stink

[01:04:17] It was like I refused to have this good time and the waiter came out and he was a German

[01:04:22] guy who was a tourist and he came out and so he started seeing happy birthday in this very thick German accent

[01:04:31] And the girls just cracked up and just started howling with laughter because of him doing that and they couldn't join in

[01:04:39] So this guy is saying the whole thing looking at me and I just looked at him and couldn't do that and

[01:04:46] They just kept laughing and laughing and eventually I just caved because it was so warm and so

[01:04:51] Wonderful and I knew they kind of had me in that moment and I knew that they were bearing witness to everything that I think going it's okay

[01:05:00] Consequently every one of my birthday is I am sung to an adjunct

[01:05:07] Fire out what a

[01:05:09] Wow, I mean yeah, police are kind of a beautiful analogy to go you can find it with your past and then you're also confronted with the present

[01:05:17] And the future which is them going hey

[01:05:20] You made it you're here and we're gonna have this hilarious

[01:05:24] We're gonna drip drag you forward with our family's language. They did and this road trip that we had together

[01:05:30] I just cling to that memory of that

[01:05:34] Well as you said, you know you not only didn't get it from

[01:05:38] That man and and he instead gave you a you know unimaginable trauma to you and your mom

[01:05:44] But you create your you find it from other places and you've created it in your place. Yeah, yeah, and

[01:05:51] It's very satisfying

[01:05:54] I know down it's a huge achievement

[01:05:59] Thank you so much, man. I know you don't this is not easy to talk about any stretch and that you don't talk about it publicly

[01:06:06] But I think by so

[01:06:09] Honestly and generously

[01:06:11] Talking about this stuff, you know as you said before we before we started you're like

[01:06:17] You've felt a real need to because it's it's

[01:06:20] I'm important to to talk about this

[01:06:22] I'm really appreciative as well. I mean

[01:06:24] Beautiful and insightful and really heartfelt and from all the the people listening that I'm sure will take a lot away from that and

[01:06:32] It will start conversations and it cuts that can put me different

[01:06:37] Light I hope on things and causes people to to talk and I think you said an amazing example of knowing that

[01:06:44] From something as horrific as that you've created so much joy and light out of it's the cycle does not

[01:06:53] It's not genetic. It does not it's not everybody it's not it's not and it's our you know

[01:06:59] It's yeah, it's good. That's what we need to

[01:07:02] Hopefully everyone engage in to try and you know

[01:07:06] break these cycles and and

[01:07:10] Give it good examples of that no, no, we don't have to accept that and and we can overcome these things and

[01:07:17] Have wonderful kind of lives because of it and you know

[01:07:20] Thank you to the both you and Tim for creating something like this. It's you know

[01:07:26] Growing up in the suburbs of Melbourne

[01:07:29] You know men did not talk I mean you know there's no landscape where this ever existed so

[01:07:35] You know I just applaud you for creating

[01:07:38] Something where guys actually do this because I think it's

[01:07:43] You know probably for the generations coming forward. It's much more normal

[01:07:46] But it's certainly not for where I come from and I think it's amazing so good. I'm just about we are

[01:07:52] Bumbling through but we're extremely

[01:07:55] Great for one beneficial with a low-guess, but I feel particularly so today. Thank you

[01:08:00] I know you can't use this by the way

[01:08:02] Step on your shoulders. You should sign the release of your personal show

[01:08:11] All right firstly a huge

[01:08:17] Thank you to Wayne he was as you could horribly imagine

[01:08:22] Really apprehensive about having that chat, but he also you know I could I could see it was not easy for him to do of course and

[01:08:31] But he really wanted to to put that out there because he believed it would be useful conversation to have and I think we can all agree

[01:08:38] Having listened to it amazingly brave but also amazingly well told and and the honesty and the vulnerability

[01:08:45] Of Wayne there to share that stuff. I was quite a mate. I'm really humbled that he did that it was it was

[01:08:51] I felt pretty like he just being able to listen to and to watch a man process that stuff so a huge thanks to Wayne for that

[01:08:59] Rebellionability and I think that kind of is the biggest takeaway to he's

[01:09:02] willingness to sit in that trauma that he's been through in that that horrible situation that he and his family have been through to sit in that and to

[01:09:10] Lean into it and to realize that it was there and and to want to work through it to

[01:09:16] help repair that damage to then be

[01:09:19] The best kind of man and partner and dad and stepdad that he could be like a massive thanks for Wayne

[01:09:25] He's honestly his generosity of spirit to

[01:09:28] Have that conversation

[01:09:30] It is a huge issue in Australia and if there is a situation like that that you know of if you yourself need to

[01:09:39] Soap if somebody needs help

[01:09:41] 100 respect.org.au is a great place to start if you know anyone that needs to hear that

[01:09:47] 1-800 respect.org.au

[01:09:49] Is a I think a great place to start so thank you to Wayne thank you to Robin for nudging along thank you all

[01:09:55] for all the other amazing little tidbits and and and ingredients that go into him creating a very clearly

[01:10:02] Happy funny joyful journey for him and his family man. I was definitely one when my pen was working

[01:10:10] For rochester's the journey down notes afterwards as I heard him chatting about it. I hope you got a lot of it too

[01:10:15] Welcome back to season three of how the dance dad I can't wait to daughter next time

[01:10:25] How are the dead?

[01:10:28] How are the dead's dad is produced by myself and my mate Tim Bartley

[01:10:32] The theme song is thanks to the incredibly talented Tom Cardi

[01:10:38] You can find him drenched throughout the internet

[01:10:41] We recorded this episode on the lands of the war undery and vulnerable people of the cool nation

[01:10:46] And we power a space to their cultural storytelling that survived for thousands of years

[01:10:51] If you want to say hi head to our website how are the dads dad dot com but most of all thank you for listening

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