Mindset coach to some of the world’s finest athletes, Ben Crowe reflects on his dadding journey so far. Given Ben is used to helping other people discover their story rather than delving into and analysing his own, we are really grateful to him for his openness and honesty, in what was a fascinating chat with Hame.
Ben is the first to admit, like all of us, he’s continually making mistakes as a parent, and that putting all his professional knowledge into practice as a dad is far easier said than done. However, as someone who can expertly distil simple lessons from complex philosophies, Ben has some amazing insights to offer and some beautifully accessible and practical advice that we can all take something from.
And these days Ben isn’t just helping people win Wimbledon… anyone can rediscover their mojo via his app, aptly called Mojo. Check it out!
Big thanks to Ben for chatting with us. He’s an in-demand guy, so we really appreciate his time and wisdom.
This is the penultimate episode for Season 2 - and for our wild rule breaking finale we are lucky enough to have back behavioural paediatrician, Dr. Billy Garvey, who will be revisiting some previous episodes with his expert eye, or rather ear… and brain. It’s the cheat sheet ep! Don’t miss it.
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And big thanks to HERTZ - Our Hertz and Merch comp is still running - for your chance to win a Polestar EV for the weekend and some super exclusive How Other Dads Dad Merch head to hertz.com.au/hoddev - Terms and conditions apply and are available at the website, entries close 4 December, 2023. Thanks to Hertz for making it all happen.
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If you wanna drop us a note, we bloody love hearing from you. You can do so at howotherdadsdad.com - thanks so much for all the correspondence we get.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
[00:00:00] Get everyone before we begin today. Let's all take a moment
[00:00:04] Let's take 30 seconds not of silence 30 seconds of non-silence to recognize hurts great friend of the podcast
[00:00:12] If you've been to an airport, you've seen me holding up a pair of car keys going let's go
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[00:00:54] Let's go hurts, but not yet because let's go into today's app
[00:00:59] Hamish is a dad who loves to be a dad, but he knows there's more to learn about being a dad
[00:01:07] So he made me show where he talks to all the dad so
[00:01:20] Hello alright welcome to another episode of how are the dads dad today's guest?
[00:01:25] It's a doozy he's really a master in the mindset and leadership
[00:01:30] Worldwide Aussie legend Ben Crow. I know a lot of people be familiar with Ben's work. He's
[00:01:36] worked with an unbelievable amount of business leaders and
[00:01:41] Super high performance athletes in terms of helping them with their mindsets most notably
[00:01:47] Probably from from my experience of seeing his work is with Ash Barty, but he's really worked with these works with an unbelievable amount of people
[00:01:55] It's fascinating to hear Ben talk because he obviously has a enormous wealth of wisdom on understanding
[00:02:01] What makes us tick while we make the decisions we do while we slip into the biases we slip into had to
[00:02:08] Help deal with those how to bring more awareness to what we're doing
[00:02:12] But really all the stuff I've heard with Ben and it is great stuff a lot of the time
[00:02:16] He's the one doing the talking or he's the one doing the questioning so today
[00:02:19] It was a little a little different for Ben and he talks about to he was like this is really strange
[00:02:24] Me like it he was talking about how he felt exposed and you know a bit vulnerable being on the other side of the question
[00:02:30] So massive appreciation for Ben for coming on
[00:02:35] opening up being willing to
[00:02:37] Examine what it is that makes him tick as a dad. I know he's an awesome dad
[00:02:43] I know many anecdotal pieces of evidence to suggest that he is but of course like all of us
[00:02:47] He's still making every mistake in the book and then following that away and in things that we can learn from so
[00:02:53] I think it's interesting to hear from someone that coaches people for high performance, but then of course
[00:02:58] Like all of us when we get home
[00:03:00] We could easy to say one thing and you get presented with a completely different set of circumstances on the home front
[00:03:07] And it's it's extremely humbling. I love this chat with Ben
[00:03:10] I hope you get a lot out of it. Let's find out how Ben crow dad
[00:03:17] How
[00:03:21] Ben crow welcome. Thank you. Hey, miss. Thanks for having me. This is exciting now
[00:03:26] At the risk of um, that's running you straight in at the deep end
[00:03:30] I
[00:03:32] Mean just off here would chatting down. I think it's a great place to pick it up where
[00:03:36] Many people will be familiar with your work
[00:03:38] Many people would be across the mojo crow and the work you do and the work you do with athletes
[00:03:43] But you were mentioning this is a slightly different situation for you because it's not necessarily professional this sort of thing
[00:03:49] This is yours a dad. This is yours a human being
[00:03:51] I feel like you're at the breakfast table this morning when my wife and kids were saying don't you bring out any of that?
[00:03:58] Mojo mumbo jumbo if you even mention the word vulnerability or
[00:04:02] imperfection or
[00:04:03] acceptance or
[00:04:05] Controlables, you know, this is not it. This is not that time
[00:04:08] You are allowed to mention those two I guess the flip side is you going I'm basically I'm invulnerable and perfect
[00:04:15] I'm shitting myself because they said it's not about that and they said don't talk too much. Don't ramble on whatever
[00:04:20] So I had to confused already we haven't even started. Oh, yeah, probably is it for me to override your family
[00:04:26] But I do give you permission to talk a lot
[00:04:28] Give you permission to share your wisdom
[00:04:31] Maybe a good place to start is one of the one of the things that I ask people to you know come to the show with
[00:04:37] the only bit of preparation is the your three
[00:04:41] Cornersons, you're three philosophies of being a dad and how that informs your parenting
[00:04:47] Yeah, I love that. I love that question. The first one would probably be embarrassing
[00:04:51] That's probably output. No, I think the first one for me would be
[00:04:54] playful. Yeah, and do you reckon or jokes aside? Do you reckon embarrassing is tied to playfulness 100%?
[00:05:00] Yeah, yeah, absolutely
[00:05:02] And I think of and you know, there's no such thing as dad school where you learn to be a dad, right? And I remember
[00:05:09] My first boy when Sally told me she was pregnant and we're living in Hong Kong at at the time
[00:05:13] And I remember just like like most outshitting myself and then from there
[00:05:18] I was going well like I've classic imposter syndrome my dad died when I was 16
[00:05:22] so I was going back to
[00:05:24] obviously your role models you go back to him from lessons and he was incredibly playful and
[00:05:29] Always laughing and it was very deliberate, you know in terms of the atmosphere around the around the house and it was
[00:05:36] deliberately playful you
[00:05:38] Consciously playful. Do you recognize that at the time or is that something that you've
[00:05:43] Realized with the benefit of hindsight retrospectively knowing how hard he had to work, you know
[00:05:48] We didn't have a lot of money. He ran a cleaning company. I was the youngest of six kids
[00:05:51] So we did it pretty tough but seeing him come home from work and trying to bring lightness and laughter and humor
[00:05:59] So forth. That's just a gift that he had right and you know running into people in their 90s now
[00:06:04] He'd be 98 I think now
[00:06:06] That new dad all the stories that they share with me and I hang on to every word they're saying right
[00:06:12] It's always about the same thing laughter and and love or caring so for me the playfulness of
[00:06:18] Of him I immediately Sally gave me a book. This is 1998 and it was called so you're gonna be a dad
[00:06:24] And I think it might have been written by a comedian, but it was also a doctor
[00:06:27] The first chapter is I'm a son not a dad
[00:06:31] Yeah, and that got me thinking about yeah in terms of the role clarity
[00:06:35] And the whole it's a very light-hearted approach back in the 90s. I hadn't read a book like that and
[00:06:40] So for me that was as a philosophy that you mentioned being playful
[00:06:45] From right from an early age and of course you're talking to a baby in it in a baby's voice
[00:06:50] Right through to and there was the obvious ones of playing football and playing games
[00:06:55] Right through to you know taking up surfing and snowboarding and photography and these were all my passions
[00:07:02] I had no idea whether they'd be interested in them
[00:07:04] Right through to telling stories. We you know really playful way
[00:07:08] I think if I look back on my favorite memories with my kids
[00:07:10] They're always memories when we're playing laughing having fun
[00:07:14] I think is as much as I can bring or encourage a playfulness around there because the opposite of plays at work
[00:07:21] It's kind of fear. Yeah, you're right. It's been frozen
[00:07:23] I didn't know that at you know at the time of becoming a dad
[00:07:26] But I look back on it and not taking life too seriously is a really big one for me quick detour
[00:07:32] Yeah, sorry didn't ask dad stats. How many how old how old how old are your kids now? So Harry's
[00:07:38] 24
[00:07:39] Hope I got this right. I hope Harry's 24 Sam's 22 and Ned's 20. Okay, awesome
[00:07:45] So go go back to you know, do you remember? Yeah, do you remember your dad's?
[00:07:51] Specific playfulness like do you remember the games or the there's some things you look back now and go gee that would have been a huge effort
[00:07:57] to do that I remember Sunday lunches and
[00:08:02] Dad was always having practical jokes, you know either with the food or
[00:08:07] Conversations or you know, he'd hide the bin. It's so ridiculous right, but he literally hide the bin in the kitchen
[00:08:12] So everyone's looking for the freaking bin and I don't know why he did it
[00:08:16] But it did create this banter and conversation
[00:08:19] So it's also in the smallest of moments
[00:08:21] He was trying to find a playful approach and I suppose that's what is what a good game does is it disrupts a pattern
[00:08:26] You know and and that and that sparked something in you
[00:08:30] we had Joe Brahman the creator of bluey and
[00:08:33] He said something though
[00:08:34] I've thought about it a lot after as we he was like I just troll my kids like I actually
[00:08:38] Troll them and was like
[00:08:40] We really do like that is that is kind of what we're doing and I think about this a lot too
[00:08:44] You want to in the middle of it when I catch myself doing I'm like
[00:08:47] Why am I doing this to the kids because it's a lot of the time?
[00:08:50] It's met with eye rolls or slight frustration. Yeah, you know, there's something in there
[00:08:54] Yeah, I don't know why we have that impulse
[00:08:57] But it's obviously something that's super important to you because are you worried that if it's not there then
[00:09:04] life's
[00:09:05] You know life gets too serious
[00:09:06] I think yeah
[00:09:08] I think one of my favorite quotes is there's not a shred of evidence exists in favor of the idea
[00:09:13] That life is serious and that quote's about 150 years old right so I was thinking why do we take life so seriously?
[00:09:20] And for me, I genuinely find one of the greatest ways to connect with someone is
[00:09:25] To play I have a playful conversation like we did off air right immediately when you start getting to that
[00:09:30] Playfulness where there's kind of no rules and you can kind of it can go anywhere or you can make up rules
[00:09:35] Yep as well
[00:09:36] I just think it's one of the most beautiful ways to connect but also if you treat life like that way
[00:09:41] And I think during COVID you're going for a playful walk or having a playful conversation
[00:09:45] I think it's one of the greatest needs in the world today is to bring more play and playfulness back into ourselves
[00:09:51] I feel blessed that my dad passed on that
[00:09:54] philosophy
[00:09:55] Of a family and life through through playfulness, you know, I know there are some people that think they're not good players
[00:10:01] Um, I hear this come up a little bit
[00:10:03] Dad's moms who are like, I just am not a good player
[00:10:07] What's your thoughts on that?
[00:10:09] Well, I'm not allowed to say violent rules. So I gotta think of a think of I'll give you five
[00:10:13] You can say five times. No, it'll be it'll be listened to I know and I'll be berated for it. So
[00:10:19] Well, yeah lean in and and tap into imagination when there's no rules
[00:10:24] So permission to be permission to screw it up permission to get it wrong
[00:10:28] I just think it taps into curiosity and imagination
[00:10:31] Two of the greatest skills that you can teach kids at a young age wherever they come from
[00:10:36] Again, I didn't know that at the time as a dad but looking back on what I think the gift of playfulness you can give your kids
[00:10:42] As much as it is, you know connection and love and no rules and so forth is powerful as well
[00:10:48] In in that spirit of you know, you're talking about snowboarding surfing and and finding your passions and bringing them into your passions
[00:10:54] Yeah
[00:10:55] I'm interested in this because my kids are at that like age where
[00:11:00] You know that band that sort of five to ten year old band where you're putting a lot of stuff in front of them
[00:11:05] Some stuff might stick some stuff might not the question I'm often asking myself is
[00:11:10] Is this worth pursuing like is there a little flicker here? Am I pushing it?
[00:11:14] Am I blind to some other passion they might have that I haven't found?
[00:11:19] How did you go with that navigating those years where you
[00:11:23] Trying to get a beat on what it is they're into but at the same time going all right. Well, not everyone loves
[00:11:30] You know soccer the very first training, but you know hey training five this might click for you
[00:11:35] So we're gonna persist with this. How did you navigate that balance? It's a really good question and I think it's more luck than design
[00:11:41] um
[00:11:42] They knew I was really passionate about surfing for instance
[00:11:46] So you're pushing them on the boards at the age of two or four
[00:11:48] But I also had no interest whatsoever whether they continued it on or not
[00:11:52] But um, they fell in love with surfing and then they know I love music
[00:11:56] So we've got guitars all around we've got 10 guitars around the crowhouse
[00:11:59] Oh, they all fell in love with playing guitar as well
[00:12:02] All right, but I would argue the stupidest thing I ever did was teach my kids to surf better than me
[00:12:09] Right because now I don't get away when we go surfing together. They all cut it drop in on me
[00:12:13] And so forth, but I also love that they're gonna and you know, they're better musicians than me now
[00:12:20] Golfers than me and footballers have had much more success and so forth
[00:12:23] But part of that on an ego point of view really pisses me off
[00:12:26] But on a personal level, okay, so maybe that's the role right now had they not followed that pursuit
[00:12:32] I know I work with a lot of athletes who deliberately, you know
[00:12:36] Don't want their kids to follow in their footsteps because of you know, I guess the
[00:12:40] What they have the pressure, you know of trying to live up to my expectations of my
[00:12:45] Of my parents and so forth is too great. So I was acutely aware of that as well
[00:12:49] So I think I'm just I'm lucky, you know, but even Sally who's
[00:12:54] Phenomenal role model for the kids far more than I'll I'll ever be, you know
[00:12:57] She got involved in helping the kids kick at at Oz kick and not a great kick or cricket
[00:13:02] Right, and I think her bowling would be a no ball if it was classified properly
[00:13:05] But she took up surfing as well, right and you know how well when when the kids were little
[00:13:10] Yeah, we'd go surfing at point road nine and you know on a on a Malibu and just for the boys to see
[00:13:16] Sally having no history of this by the way in her 40s
[00:13:20] That's great take up some of these sports and now golf as well
[00:13:23] And she's so frustrated when she comes home from a golf lesson or a golf round
[00:13:27] But they see Sally getting out of her comfort zone and trying to get better and so forth and in terms of
[00:13:33] You know success or redefining success
[00:13:36] They see the effort more so than than I guess the output
[00:13:39] I think that's what we tried to endure in the kids as well in terms of
[00:13:43] That uncomfortableness of being a beginner because that's what all kids are beginners at the stuff they take up
[00:13:49] That's the world. I'm in with my kids at the moment where I'm
[00:13:53] Trying different strategies and different tactics to
[00:13:57] celebrate the
[00:13:59] Essentially celebrate being shit without using that language to them but to explain the theory of going well
[00:14:05] You can't start experienced
[00:14:08] Because that's that doesn't work like that you start terrible
[00:14:11] And we we get better and we celebrate little wins totally and
[00:14:17] It's it's it's funny going through that like you know
[00:14:19] I've had this conversation with mates because we tend to only teach kids stuff that we can do
[00:14:24] Perfectly like this is how you swim. This is how you throw a ball like we can do all that stuff
[00:14:29] But I love that your wife
[00:14:30] Started as a beginner alongside them totally such a cool thing
[00:14:33] So they saw that I can't say vulnerability and that's too mentioned but they saw that
[00:14:38] What help me help me?
[00:14:40] Experience and uncomfortableness sort of yeah, if I think there's a word for it
[00:14:45] You can answer half my questions just just just a way of being honest about your shortcomings and being okay with that
[00:14:52] But not being afraid to try but not being afraid to try and putting their experience
[00:14:58] Ahead of your own and not being afraid to look silly in the process again
[00:15:03] Wouldn't it be great if there was one word that summed up all those notions?
[00:15:07] But it's not bloody English language only only they've thought harder about it totally well
[00:15:12] I think by virtue of I mean one of the human needs is to grow right like it's the it's what it's one of the
[00:15:17] Six human needs every every human has is to grow
[00:15:20] By definition of growing you're going to put yourself out of your comfort zone
[00:15:25] So you're going to be doing something for the first time
[00:15:27] Yeah, or the second time and you're not going to be an expert of it by definition
[00:15:31] Right, so I think if you can encourage your kids to
[00:15:35] You know put yourself out there to try new things to play around with to see whether you like it or not
[00:15:40] Right, that's part of playfulness as well. I think true and I'm speaking more to myself here, but
[00:15:45] One of the things I keep coming back to is just to remember that
[00:15:49] Progress is slow or whatever and to have a laugh and to enjoy that the process of being a beginner. Yeah to not
[00:15:57] Want to rush to the next stage or to not for there to be no
[00:16:01] Time frame of when you progress to the next stage as long as you've got that forward momentum. Totally. I wish I
[00:16:07] I I'd like to think I did it a little bit
[00:16:10] Naturally, but I definitely didn't do it by design
[00:16:13] Is rewarding effort not outcome? Yeah, right and
[00:16:18] Being the privileged position I am in now where I meet so many
[00:16:22] Parental experts when I meet these people as well
[00:16:26] I've made every every single mistake a dad would would make right in terms of because
[00:16:31] The pop culture is rewarding when you when your son gets a trophy or get an a or so forth and
[00:16:36] Those six words which I learned
[00:16:38] Later on in life as my kids were probably teenagers that you know, I love to watch you play
[00:16:42] Yeah, because that's the unconditional love as opposed to you know, I love to watch a process
[00:16:48] I don't like the result. Yeah, yeah and and
[00:16:52] We're celebrating that
[00:16:54] More so than whether they win a trophy or they're in the 18 or they kick a goal and so forth because I think one of the biggest issues today is
[00:17:01] Kids believe that their self-worth is predicated on
[00:17:05] Achievement and if they don't get it then their dads won't love them
[00:17:08] You know that classic perfect perform repeats syndrome. It's a really interesting one because kids are also
[00:17:14] I think it's a there's a there's a duality to it because kids respond well to certificates and stickers and pencils and like so much of primary school
[00:17:24] At least in my experience seems to be there's a reward system. There's like this credits and there's you want a sticker and
[00:17:32] So i'm in the situation now with my with my daughter who's like he's coming home being like
[00:17:36] Guess what? There's only one person that got a sticker for like being the best leader and I got the sticker
[00:17:43] Again, I don't think I did this consciously at all. So I didn't know
[00:17:48] any of this as a as a dad
[00:17:50] learning to be a dad but
[00:17:52] again looking back or talking to the experts of
[00:17:57] Of how to connect with with your kids
[00:18:00] I think it would be very much about like in that situation with your daughter and the sticker
[00:18:03] It was about well, what did you learn about yourself?
[00:18:06] In that situation, did you have to get out of your comfort zone?
[00:18:09] You know, did you have to try really hard? Did you have to concentrate?
[00:18:13] Did you have to so we can reward the intrinsic so they can be motivated by
[00:18:17] The intrinsic elements of what they did to get there
[00:18:20] Rather than the actual outcome and I think if we can get back to celebrate. Yeah
[00:18:24] Celebrating the process celebrating getting out of their comfort zone or helping someone else and triple points if they can come up with it
[00:18:30] Themselves that would be huge totally. Yeah, I think for me
[00:18:34] You know, I think I always wonder whether pride is a good thing or not. Yeah, we my wife and I have this
[00:18:40] Seven deadly sins. Yeah
[00:18:42] Pride if I look back the things that I'm most proud of my three boys that that get me quite emotional
[00:18:48] Is not the achievements
[00:18:50] It's how they went about themselves getting to the achievements when I get feedback from coaches or parents
[00:18:56] About how they helped someone. Yeah, it could be I had a coach come up to me
[00:19:00] Once with one of my boys and said look, can you ask your son to stop handballing?
[00:19:05] Because just sharing around too much. He's a beautiful kick and he can kick goals and we have four goals down
[00:19:10] We know he can can you just ask him to kick it?
[00:19:12] All right
[00:19:13] He was so keen for everyone else to be involved
[00:19:17] That he he didn't want to actually kick a goal
[00:19:20] You know and I think if we can celebrate in that situation is helping a boy that got up and and got again
[00:19:26] Or helping a kid who wasn't getting a kick or or so forth
[00:19:29] I mean this I keep having like eight things. I want to come back to but can you
[00:19:34] Put that quality because I think that's a quality that every parent would love to have any kids that they've got children
[00:19:39] That are interested in others
[00:19:40] Do you can you put that down to things or is this the culmination of the culture you create at home?
[00:19:46] Yeah, good question. That probably leads to my second
[00:19:48] I was that's the other thing I'm meant to come back to
[00:19:50] Perfect. Good. Let's go two birds with one stone. What's our second one? My second word would be love
[00:19:56] Yes
[00:19:57] And
[00:19:58] Obviously that's a catch all for you know being interested
[00:20:04] Being available
[00:20:06] Caring for others helping others loving others, you know to love and to be loved and
[00:20:12] That one I have consciously
[00:20:14] We're playful. It was probably something I intuitively knew but I didn't wasn't consciously doing maybe like my dad was in retrospect
[00:20:21] But love I was consciously trying to and what were the things you consciously tried to come back to?
[00:20:25] Look for little things whether you know to helping helping people and finding just a ton of little ways to to help people and
[00:20:33] More so than you than yourself. I think that's a great
[00:20:35] I mean we talk about love a lot on the show because of course
[00:20:38] This is that's what it's all about at the core of the relationship, but
[00:20:41] The that the two sides of it to be loved is obviously
[00:20:46] such a that's right at the
[00:20:49] The nucleus of who we are as people
[00:20:51] But to show them how to give love to I think is a is a really important one
[00:20:55] That's that interests me. Is that something you actively
[00:20:58] Teach, you know and you want to model to the kids to show them how to love people as well
[00:21:02] Yeah, that's probably something I definitely did know that you can't love someone else until you love yourself
[00:21:08] Fully so, you know knowing that they're all worthy not only of love and belonging with Sally and myself and their cousins and so forth
[00:21:16] And celebrating that
[00:21:17] But then once you know that to then pass it on and to help someone else or to love someone else and
[00:21:23] You know put yourself out there for someone else and I think that's
[00:21:26] You know find yourself lose yourself and find someone else to love as a as a framework or a philosophy is pretty
[00:21:32] Pretty simple, right? But you can only do that in my opinion
[00:21:36] Unconditionally if you could give it to yourself first
[00:21:40] Unconditionally and we feel if you feel that and you have memories of that when you remember feeling loved and feeling safe
[00:21:47] And belonging and worthy that you know classic attachment theory
[00:21:51] Then I think you've got the courage to go after you know and goals and dreams and kind of cut the
[00:21:56] The umbilical cord and then go on your own journey and then to give that love
[00:22:00] Yeah, yeah to love and to be loved. I guess is was was absolutely a philosophy
[00:22:04] I was trying to instill in the in the kids and
[00:22:07] Yeah, if it was you know, if I was to move away today forever picked up by aliens
[00:22:11] I'd be in terms of my definition of success
[00:22:14] I'd be very very happy that my kids understand that and and and kind of behave that way as well beautiful
[00:22:20] What's number three? Number three would would definitely be um
[00:22:24] Courage or or encourage. I don't think i'm a very courageous person, but I would love to encourage
[00:22:31] My boys to be courageous
[00:22:33] And I think that they have demonstrated it in lots of little ways already, but you don't think you're a courageous person
[00:22:39] No, I don't look at myself and saying I'm a courageous person
[00:22:41] I think i'm a wimp in big surf or you know
[00:22:44] I'd like to put my push myself out there in in more ways than than I do in certain situations
[00:22:49] But no, I definitely if you're over indexing between, you know courage and consideration
[00:22:54] I'll probably go more the
[00:22:55] Considerate lens and and would love to have more courage in in my life
[00:22:59] How do you define courage? Like what does courage mean to you to you know?
[00:23:03] If you had to explain it to the to the kids or when they were little to go
[00:23:06] This is the kind of quality I would love to see all right if you have to define it
[00:23:09] I've probably got a little bit of courage because that that v word might come into the
[00:23:13] Interplay a little bit into a little bit more but um at the moment
[00:23:17] It's the courage to be more me the courage to really I guess make sense of my story
[00:23:21] I think i'm the classic, you know doctor who serves everyone else or the technician or the electrician who helps everyone else's cars
[00:23:26] But that's interesting doesn't help themselves
[00:23:28] So that's what I said to you off air that this this podcast for me with you today is you know
[00:23:33] Confronting for me. You talk for a living you talk about these things for living, but it's probably a lot
[00:23:38] It's externally focused. It's it's you know from from bend to the world totally
[00:23:42] You know some you know some my ash would say it's a it's a mask that i'm wearing sometimes and you know
[00:23:47] My relationship with my dad as well
[00:23:48] You know, I think I could be a lot more courageous to make sense of that
[00:23:52] Relationship as well through how old were you when you lost him? Do you say 16?
[00:23:55] 16 yeah
[00:23:57] Yeah, so but so definitely encouraging
[00:24:00] As a dad I think my third philosophy if I can encourage my
[00:24:05] kids
[00:24:06] To push themselves out of their comfort zone to live a life true to themselves
[00:24:12] To follow their goals and dreams
[00:24:15] And have the courage to be disliked and I think
[00:24:20] You know it was a book that my son gave me
[00:24:22] Many many years ago to read that i've now passed on to ryan and a lot of your your friends as well
[00:24:27] I've had a lot of your clients on this podcast. They've all read that book right?
[00:24:31] I try not to charge them
[00:24:33] but um
[00:24:35] So they care more about what they think about themselves and what they say to themselves than than and let go of
[00:24:40] Obsessing what anyone else thinks about them if I could help them in some way
[00:24:45] I think if they've got that authenticity
[00:24:47] Through being courageous
[00:24:49] Yeah, is that what it's about you because i'm sure again a lot of people would hear this and go
[00:24:52] Yes, I would love my kids to have that especially as the world seems wilder as you
[00:24:57] Our kids grow up to go
[00:24:59] They have a solid internal compass and that's that's what matters. That's their north star
[00:25:05] What things help and don't help that as a kid is growing up?
[00:25:09] Let's say through their teenage years to develop that aspect teaching them that
[00:25:14] You know if they find happiness in something it does not matter what anyone else thinks
[00:25:20] At all right if you find something funny, it doesn't matter if no one else laughs
[00:25:25] Right if you genuinely get joy out of something continue that on because we're all on you know different
[00:25:31] journeys right so
[00:25:32] It's like if you're if your son's being bullied or you know your daughter's being bullied in the school and they have no tools to
[00:25:38] To kind of help them right just say to the kid who's who's putting pressure on you like
[00:25:43] Why do you care so much?
[00:25:46] If you ask a bully that question they would look at oh, yeah
[00:25:49] Why am I bullying you? Why do I care what your run is you've got on or what you look like or so forth?
[00:25:54] Yeah, right as it's kind of like saying well
[00:25:56] What's going on for you that you want to transfer that pain onto me by bullying me
[00:26:00] Yeah, so if you can give kids certain school skills to that is a great one actually again
[00:26:05] And I hope i'm not over showing for my daughter's life
[00:26:07] Big issue in 10 years. You're gonna be in a lot of trouble. I know well
[00:26:10] I hopefully rule if you're listening to this when you're older. I mean she does she does hold a grudge
[00:26:15] Uh
[00:26:17] I'll quite often get working up at four in the morning and reminded of something I did when she was two
[00:26:21] This podcast will go off here in about 12 years
[00:26:24] You like well dad sorry to wake you but I was just thinking remember that time you said I could have my teasers and
[00:26:30] Then they were gone. It's like
[00:26:34] But she
[00:26:37] It's funny you I mean the little people little problems
[00:26:39] But I think about this stuff all the time because I know these will evolve
[00:26:44] But yeah, it really affected her the other day. She was at lunch and she had a
[00:26:47] Jam which she likes which is hummus and cheese and some other kids
[00:26:51] I think probably made it extremely
[00:26:54] Understandable, you know just banal comment over lunch of like oh, yeah, he's like hummus and cheese is disgusting
[00:27:02] Cut yeah
[00:27:05] And I felt that pain even though we know like it's a comment over a sandwich
[00:27:08] I was like
[00:27:10] Your heart breaks because really upset it and it's this was now a month ago
[00:27:14] But it's still getting bought up quite a lot about why those girls are sort of blacklisted
[00:27:19] And try but they also love her and they're her friends
[00:27:22] And I see them playing together having the greatest time ever
[00:27:24] But it's still it's really cut her and I'm like that happens to all of us, you know totally
[00:27:29] I'm not fitting in
[00:27:31] or in this moment. I feel like I'm the odd person out and
[00:27:34] Perhaps all kids like this but no particularly my daughter's obviously susceptible with that kind of her
[00:27:39] And we're having this conversation as well where I'm trying to
[00:27:42] I'm trying to bring her around to that idea of going
[00:27:45] But that's okay, you know like we all like different sandwiches. That's what makes the world great
[00:27:49] Yeah, and we we don't have to like the same things as our friends and all that sort of stuff
[00:27:53] I think that's a critical point. Yeah, it's unfortunately it's can on chudev today
[00:27:58] You know that beautiful quote
[00:27:59] Finding yourself is an act of love expressing it as an act of rebellion
[00:28:04] We almost need to teach our kids to be rebellious to getting into the group think
[00:28:08] Of caring about these opinions and judgments
[00:28:11] But it's powerful
[00:28:14] Well because we also have that craving for connection, right exactly like everyone else
[00:28:17] We want to belong and if we don't feel that we'll try and do something to fit in
[00:28:21] So she'll bring a different lunch to school the next day and then hopefully the kids will
[00:28:24] Like what her taste buds
[00:28:27] And that's why we can kind of laugh at it because it's you know, but never in front of her like but behind
[00:28:32] closed doors once the kids are embedded we're making school lunches. So I'm like this is
[00:28:36] You know, this is if the sandwich has rattled us like oh my god, we got we've got some big stuff coming down the line totally
[00:28:43] and I think that's you know, I'm
[00:28:46] Before I kick I would love some of these skills to answer your question about what skills you can give the kids
[00:28:52] um to
[00:28:53] Teach that results just the only person they should ever compare themselves against
[00:28:59] Is who they were yesterday and just aim to be that little bit better
[00:29:02] Today, but they can only do that home if they should I'm not allowed to say this word either except
[00:29:08] themselves
[00:29:10] Unconditionally, this is what I look like
[00:29:12] Yeah, this is my lot and like these are the cards. I've been dealt. This is what I've got for lunch
[00:29:17] And just accept that in to celebrate that because it's part of me. I like that food
[00:29:22] That's that's you know, everyone has their thing that makes them authentic and if you can
[00:29:27] really
[00:29:28] celebrate that and
[00:29:30] Motivate them to continue that they don't have to eat what someone else is eating totally because they don't like that and did
[00:29:37] I'm just fascinated to know because you've got kids now that come at the end of teenage years in the young adults
[00:29:42] Yeah, did you have these conversations with your kids a lot?
[00:29:46] Did they did you model it by example or what were the actual
[00:29:50] What was the transfer of this knowledge like I suppose like to get it to stick? It's a good question
[00:29:57] No, as I said to you at the start I made every single mistake a dad could could make because
[00:30:03] Your greatest strength is your greatest weakness. You love the kids so much
[00:30:06] So you get caught up in the narrative of I'm being bullied, right?
[00:30:09] So you and I'm getting shitty at the kids or their parents or or or so forth and you're interfering
[00:30:15] In your kids life in that way
[00:30:17] So I'd like to say I took a step back and I was measured and I was encouraging and available and open and
[00:30:23] giving them the skills at the time
[00:30:25] I don't reckon I did that a lot, you know, maybe maybe early on, you know
[00:30:30] Probably at times I could take a step back the other mistake I made
[00:30:34] Horribly as a dad and probably still make it is
[00:30:37] Is trying to solve their problems for them rather than, you know, maybe asking questions or so or so forth
[00:30:45] Especially if it's unsolicited when you know trying trying to fix it
[00:30:49] I think that would I didn't realize until much much later in life. In fact, I caught up with you know
[00:30:53] Lail stone over the summer and listening to her for a couple of hours in a cafe
[00:30:58] I was you know, I was inspired by meeting such an incredible human. I was demotivated by thinking she's I made every mistake
[00:31:04] She just referenced right in terms of your job is not to solve
[00:31:08] their problems
[00:31:09] your job is to kind of meet them where they're at
[00:31:12] and
[00:31:12] Validate their emotions as opposed to fix the fix the issue and and fix them and
[00:31:19] It's such a battle isn't it that's a constant work in progress as I said because of love
[00:31:24] It ends up interfering in their life and and their life task and
[00:31:30] Rather than knowing, you know to validate their emotions and yeah, that sounds really hard
[00:31:34] And yeah, if it was me, I'd be feeling really bad as well
[00:31:37] So, you know, so what are you going to do about it? Like what's next?
[00:31:40] What what what things could you do and kind of encourage them to problem solve themselves?
[00:31:44] I'd like to say that, you know, if it's selective memory, I don't think I do this is absolutely one of those times too when it's like
[00:31:51] Especially in your line of work. You know that you know this theory so much like it mentally you absolutely understand it your head
[00:31:59] Is flawless in terms of knowing this inside out
[00:32:02] Did you often find as someone who is a practitioner of coaching high performance people in these mindsets and in this
[00:32:09] You know unlocking that side of them
[00:32:11] Did you you know often find that like that is it is harder to practice?
[00:32:16] Than preach 100% yeah. Oh, yeah
[00:32:20] You'd like to think again if you if you cut yourself some slack
[00:32:23] And you know, so look at okay. I'm a good person. I'm doing the best job I can
[00:32:28] And when you look back on it, you probably just hope you do more
[00:32:31] Good than bad or get it right more than you get it wrong
[00:32:34] But you're gonna get it wrong for a whole set of different reasons
[00:32:37] You might be distracted yourself. You're lacking energy something else has happened to you in your life
[00:32:42] And suddenly your kids come in and you don't you just not present to kind of listen if you like and listen to them and understand their needs
[00:32:50] So I think, you know
[00:32:53] That for me it was is a game changer when I think when the kids were about 15
[00:32:58] I changed tact. What did you change a lot?
[00:33:01] I stopped
[00:33:03] Treating I stopped having a superiority complex
[00:33:06] I think yeah and believing that I had to
[00:33:09] Have all the answers and I was the superior one in the house because I'm older than them and I'm their dad and
[00:33:13] And so forth and I I reckon there was a conscious moment run up run a flight to barley
[00:33:18] And harry gave me a talk a Ted talk of brinne brown
[00:33:22] And who then brinne went on to become a pretty important part in my life right?
[00:33:27] And I suddenly sat there listening to talk and I looked across the three kids and I go
[00:33:31] They're my mentors like they're reverse mentors for me and they're equals and they're so wise
[00:33:37] And there's little other moments leading up to this point where I suddenly go
[00:33:40] I want to start treating my kids as equals not as this superior guy with all the answers who just
[00:33:47] You know why not because I because I said so or you know so forth
[00:33:50] And I think I started listening to them again pure luck than design hamish. I didn't do this
[00:33:55] consciously I did have an aha moment
[00:33:58] And then later on in life for definitely for I guess the last I don't know five or seven years with that knowledge
[00:34:05] My kids have helped me
[00:34:07] I reckon more than I've helped them
[00:34:09] About not taking things too seriously or when I get criticized or when I fall down and
[00:34:14] You know, and I know that if I'm more real and showing my emotions that they're gonna love me back
[00:34:21] They have my back. I love it. I mean it's it's
[00:34:25] I was having this chat with a made-of-mine last night actually in terms of
[00:34:28] He said something like he was like I remember growing up my dad
[00:34:32] He could always fix the lawnmower, but I I would have no idea how to fix the lawnmower
[00:34:36] Like he's got a brand new baby and he's like
[00:34:38] As you get older being a dad like do you do you get dad wisdom?
[00:34:41] Do you do you learn more like he was worried about going dad wisdom?
[00:34:45] He's like I remember looking at my dad and seeing cable and I don't think I'll be able to
[00:34:49] I can't do this stuff
[00:34:51] And like funny example, but I think it cuts the heart of going we
[00:34:56] Feel like we need to have the answers for our kids
[00:35:00] Like we maybe that's how we remember aspects of our own dad
[00:35:02] But then that that idea of of growing with them of of saying to them as you're saying like
[00:35:08] I don't know this stuff and I'm I am eager to be taught it
[00:35:12] As there's those many things that our kids can teach us
[00:35:16] Totally and I think I think I knew that phrase like you hear that. Ah your kids you teachers
[00:35:20] But can I've heard that phrase since I became a dad?
[00:35:23] But it's only now as I get a bit older. I start to see glimmers of what that means. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I feel
[00:35:30] I feel quite blessed
[00:35:32] Having said that if they listen to this podcast, I'm screwed right in terms of they'll be they'll be you playbook
[00:35:37] They'll be there'll be conditions on it. I think being a dad
[00:35:41] is there's a strong correlation between being a parent or a dad and
[00:35:46] um leadership philosophy and purpose
[00:35:48] I was gonna want this is the next bit. Yeah for me the definition of leadership is to create an environment to help others realize their potential
[00:35:56] Yes, not to just impart your framework of what looks good. Correct. It's not about you
[00:36:02] In my opinion the number one reason why leaders get it wrong
[00:36:06] And maybe parents as well
[00:36:08] Is we think it's about us. We think we have to have all the answers
[00:36:11] Right and vulnerability is a weakness and I can't ask questions. I can't put up my hand and go
[00:36:15] I've got no clue what I'm doing here because we think we have to be it
[00:36:18] But when you realize it's actually not about you
[00:36:21] It's about them
[00:36:23] And what you can do to create an environment to help them
[00:36:27] And push leadership deep through the business or the family if you're a parent
[00:36:32] If you have that philosophy your job is just to create an environment to help them flourish to help them learn
[00:36:37] To help them make mistakes and grow and overcome adversity and and be playful and along the journey and I think maybe if I if I knew that
[00:36:46] Back back when I would stop interfering and trying to fix everything for for my kids or for sally and
[00:36:54] I feel like later on in life, you know, god, I wish I knew some of this back then
[00:36:59] I would of course so many less fights or frustrations
[00:37:03] You know, do you think those fights came from you being set in things needing to be one way?
[00:37:09] Yes, I was definitely in a month of being the pleaser and wanting an environment where no one's fighting and everything's just kind of
[00:37:16] Was the downside of that was they weren't
[00:37:19] They were running into a wall if they wanted to express something. Yeah, it's not their job necessarily to be fixed
[00:37:26] I was creating this interference in in the relationship
[00:37:29] Rather than again encouraging, you know the third word
[00:37:33] Means you don't have to interfere part of your but you can still have this curiosity
[00:37:36] What can I do to create an environment them to feel safe?
[00:37:39] You know, so they feel okay
[00:37:40] If they do have issues that they can come back to me if that's my role
[00:37:44] If I understood that back back then my role is just to create a safe safe haven as a parent as a dad and a partner
[00:37:52] You know if you are partnering with the sorry if you're parenting with a partner to create
[00:37:56] You're an environmental engineer. You're just taking care of the environment rather than a human engineer
[00:38:02] You're not you're not shaping the person. You're shaping the environment. They're operating in totally
[00:38:07] Totally and I think that's where Sally's been absolutely brilliant because I think she
[00:38:11] Either intuitively or through her her upbringing or her occupational therapy
[00:38:15] I think she understood so many of these things far better than I and
[00:38:18] Looking back i'm wondering did she try and tell me this or did she just
[00:38:22] Realize for you to catch on and tell me to go off somewhere and then she could you know help the kids in
[00:38:27] In the proper way
[00:38:30] You spend a lot of time, you know, you've you've spent your professional career working with athletes and and helping their mindset
[00:38:37] And then on your personal life. You've got your children. You're helping them develop their mindset
[00:38:42] Do you have moments where you go again like I know this theory, but um, it's not working for me and how do you reset out of that?
[00:38:50] um
[00:38:51] good question
[00:38:53] I've never felt that it hasn't worked
[00:38:55] For the kids these principles aren't mine. They're two and a half thousand years old. Whether you study
[00:39:02] stoicism philosophy or
[00:39:04] Buddhism religion, right?
[00:39:07] These these principles have been around for a long time
[00:39:10] I've just realized the power if you can simplify this complexity into certain tools that athletes and teams and CEOs can use
[00:39:16] And the kids are very lucky because they love
[00:39:20] You know sport and they've been privileged to see a lot of the behind the scenes of a lot of the athletes
[00:39:25] Being incredibly real and raw and and seeing them at the lowest of lows
[00:39:30] But they've also they're very curious. So they've also understood the process that they've gone through and I think through osmosis
[00:39:36] They've learned to develop their own words and mantras or affirmations that they can go back to when
[00:39:43] They're being distracted or they've got anxiety or stress or fear or worries
[00:39:47] That they have tools that they can that can draw down on to have an element of self confidence
[00:39:53] Or or performance confidence, you know, it's it's it mean you're right
[00:39:56] What are such a privileged position for those kids to be into go? You know
[00:40:00] Most kids you know 99 point no no no no no no
[00:40:04] kids have
[00:40:05] The poster of an athlete on the wall
[00:40:08] But they don't understand the actual human anguish of that person's
[00:40:13] Insecurities and and your kids have got to see that totally
[00:40:18] De-rayer fires. I guess that idea of hero worship to be like well, they're all humans
[00:40:23] They do amazing things but
[00:40:25] They're human beings totally so they see you know athletes performing in world surfing title finals or in grand finals in afl
[00:40:33] And they know the backstory
[00:40:36] Of where they need to focus their attention today, you know and what will cause pressure
[00:40:40] You know he's focusing on an uncontrollable wanting to control all right, so they know these things again like me
[00:40:46] They know it on an intellectual level
[00:40:48] but
[00:40:49] Implementing on an emotional level takes takes practice and they're human like everyone so they're imperfect
[00:40:55] So they'll make mistakes and so forth. So I feel like and they have to practice that themselves
[00:41:00] And so is that constant what we come back to that encouragement that forgiveness of going we go again
[00:41:06] We try again, especially while they're little teenagers growing up
[00:41:09] iterating through that process. Yeah, totally totally. I think as they become teenagers into adults
[00:41:15] That's what I think looking back on my life. I wish I had
[00:41:18] Spent a lot more time talking about from a resilience point of view not trying to fix them
[00:41:22] Not trying to pick them up when they fall down helicopter marshmallow generation and so forth
[00:41:28] Because life is really tough as a teenager especially coming out of coville coming out of university or social media or so forth
[00:41:34] There's so many distractions home that you and I probably didn't have as much of when we were growing up
[00:41:39] But the social comparison
[00:41:41] Right or just you know
[00:41:44] They're not entitled or but they're living through an entitlement generation as if you know do something for me
[00:41:49] My life should be this should be different. I should be different
[00:41:51] But you have that sense of
[00:41:53] Entitled more expectation when things don't go to expectation when you do get injured or you don't get the job or so
[00:41:58] forth I think them just like every other teenager
[00:42:02] Struggles with overcoming that adversity is that well, it is what it is. This is life
[00:42:06] And it's not it's not bells and whistles. Yeah, but I think I
[00:42:10] Looking back. I probably did the wrong thing by trying to fix things for them rather than did you want to rush them?
[00:42:16] Which is what I would do. I'm sure what we ordered that you want to rush through the adversity
[00:42:20] As quick as you can. Yeah, rather than acknowledging it
[00:42:24] It kind of you know identifying it acknowledging it accepting it and letting it go and then reframing and turn the adversity into
[00:42:31] Into possibility. So it's like, okay
[00:42:33] Curiosity taps in what do I do now? How do I get through this? Who can help me?
[00:42:38] And it's like the possibility of what I can do with
[00:42:41] With this and that's what we talk about encouraging
[00:42:44] I'd love to feel that later on in life
[00:42:46] I feel like they're learning those skills now to encourage them that when shit happens, which it will
[00:42:51] It's always about the response. Yeah, how do I respond now? So my my youngest boy Ned has had so many
[00:42:58] You know shoulder reconstructions knee
[00:43:01] You know surgeries hand surgery like issues and so forth time and time and time and time again
[00:43:06] but he's still going and
[00:43:09] He's passionate about it. He feels he's pretty good at it
[00:43:13] And
[00:43:14] He has no idea whether we're how far that his career will go
[00:43:17] But neither do my other two boys as well Sam and Harry, but
[00:43:20] Again, it's not what happens to them in life. There's an uncontrollable, right?
[00:43:23] But it's how they respond to these things in life for me. That's
[00:43:28] That's success. That is everything. Yeah, and that's where if they have the courage to be themselves and follow their goals and dreams
[00:43:34] Regardless of whether they get there or not
[00:43:37] But they also acknowledge and believe that they're
[00:43:41] loved
[00:43:42] And that they're worthy of giving love even if you know, they get dropped
[00:43:46] Like, you know as we all do and but they they learn from that. Okay, this relationship wasn't meant to work
[00:43:51] So what do I do now? And I think if you've got that combo of love at one extreme and courage at the other
[00:43:58] I reckon we've done a
[00:44:01] Absolutely. So yeah
[00:44:03] um
[00:44:04] quickly
[00:44:05] Gold a gold standard daddy example from someone you've seen or someone you're aware of could be big or small
[00:44:12] But where you look at someone and go that's
[00:44:15] That's that embodies the qualities that I reckon that guy's doing it. Well, that's such a hard question home for me
[00:44:21] I I see so many I guess examples
[00:44:25] And you know, I'm in a obviously get to know all the dads at primary school and I've seen a couple of dads in particular
[00:44:31] just they're
[00:44:32] Investing in in their kids and their kids interests. I've got Richard Lewis who watching him coach
[00:44:39] his young daughter in football when AFLW came in and just the sheer joy and passion that
[00:44:45] seeing his daughter and and dad
[00:44:48] And it's all about, you know, loving to watch your play
[00:44:51] It's all about the intrinsic motivation to compete and have fun and push yourself out of your comfort zone
[00:44:55] No talk of winning and the great irony is they then go and win the premiership, right? Because they're having so much fun
[00:45:00] That they don't really care about distractions of you know trying to please my parents and expectations of others
[00:45:06] They're just in the zone but to watch him do that or or julian
[00:45:10] That is that's a beautiful one. I mean what what makes that relationship stand out more than anyone else that's in a coach daughter relationship
[00:45:17] It's probably just the recency bias and the conversations I've had with him where he gets so much joy
[00:45:22] Seeing annie in this case smile and he did the same for his other other daughter as well
[00:45:27] But I've seen another friend julian batastella do the exact same thing with
[00:45:32] With four kids, but if you ask for a gold standard the one that stands out for me
[00:45:38] My kids I went to a really small primary school called sat rocks and
[00:45:43] In the situation that I was in we used to get a dad come in a well-known dad to come and talk on father's day
[00:45:48] Okay, so he had jimmy sines one year and he was brilliant and then one year we got denis comedi
[00:45:54] And denis was asked a question about you know
[00:45:57] What's your advice for some a dad who's struggling to connect with his teenage son?
[00:46:01] And he told a beautiful story about when his son I think was 17 or 18 they were just
[00:46:07] Struggling to connect anymore and had a beautiful relationship growing up. But then you know, he was daggy daggy
[00:46:13] Dennis, you know everyone's greatest fear and probably a lot of people's reality
[00:46:18] His music was daggy looked daggy just had nothing in common with his son
[00:46:22] Right and he was really stressed about this and trying to create
[00:46:25] A connection and whether he got the advice about just trying to find the glue trying to find a fit trying to find a way in
[00:46:32] But his son used to listen to some pretty out there music that you can only get on the internet
[00:46:38] You know
[00:46:38] Kind of an alternative rock kind of music
[00:46:41] And one night at the dinner table denis asked his son or told a story to his son about you know
[00:46:47] I listened to that song you listened to the other night. I really like the lyrics
[00:46:51] And all these sons george has dropped and go oh my god
[00:46:53] My dad cared to even listen to my music let alone listen to the lyrics
[00:46:58] And they end up having a beautiful conversation or from that
[00:47:02] He denis went on to then start listening to a lot of the songs. He started liking the music even
[00:47:07] Created this incredible connection with his son around this alternative music to the point where they ended up going overseas
[00:47:13] To meet some of these bands. I think they might have even invested in a go fund me or some of these bands as well
[00:47:17] Right. So you go from no connection and our son. I'm just losing my son
[00:47:23] To a shape where you suddenly had this relationship this shared joy this experience with
[00:47:29] With your son. I listened to that. I was hanging on every word and the amount of wisdom in that story for me
[00:47:35] I've kind of I've kind of stuck with that forever. So whenever I feel like I'm not
[00:47:38] Connected in some way just find a way in you know, I love that and I mean to me
[00:47:44] I hear that and I go it comes back to
[00:47:47] a thing that I think about all the time which is
[00:47:49] You don't have we don't there's he didn't do that
[00:47:53] He didn't listen to that song because he had a 200 step plan that one day will be in Cincinnati
[00:47:58] Backstage with these guys investing in their you know next album
[00:48:02] It was just that effort to make the next step a bit of a Hail Mary really like a total role of the dice
[00:48:08] But I love hearing those examples. It's just such a great reminder to be like you just make the first effort
[00:48:14] One effort and you don't have to know what comes after that and then if you if you keep making the effort
[00:48:20] Something will crack something will give 100% I love the mantra. You got a wanna
[00:48:25] All right, and if you if you lean into that you will listen, you know, you find the stories behind the stories
[00:48:31] We're all capable of it. Totally. It's not what someone's interests are
[00:48:36] But you'll find the story behind the story there
[00:48:39] I think if we if we lean in and we listen in that way
[00:48:42] We'll find so much wisdom that we didn't realize was there, but you got a wanna
[00:48:47] You know do that I think and and probably change your perspective and in his case you put up his hand and goes
[00:48:52] Okay, I'm feeling a bit disconnected. How do I find that connection?
[00:48:55] So good. Yeah, I kind of stayed with that. Um, I'd love to finish by
[00:48:59] You mentioned you've made all them every mistake in the book
[00:49:01] Now of course I hear that your kids this is really naive because I hear your kids in their 20s and I go
[00:49:08] Ah, you know my kids eight and five and I go your kids are in their 20s. You're done. And of course you're never done
[00:49:14] Uh, what was your most recent mistake?
[00:49:20] My most recent mistake again it would be
[00:49:25] Interfering would yeah, I'm I'm still trying to fix things for that's the lesson that keeps coming back to you
[00:49:31] It is yeah, um, I'd like to think I've got a lot better
[00:49:35] At it you should probably ask my kids and they'll probably realize about 400, right?
[00:49:40] But most recent mistake I've made with my kids or probably the most recent mistake I make and I'll probably make it
[00:49:46] every day is
[00:49:48] offering unsolicited advice
[00:49:51] When I probably know in my heart of hearts that it's unnecessary and they'll probably get there
[00:49:57] So it's it's again going interfering and trying to give them advice as opposed to
[00:50:03] That's not my life task. Yeah, it's not my job to
[00:50:08] Fear and give them the answers. What would you have rather you did then interfere?
[00:50:13] I wish I had
[00:50:15] ester parella laylestone in my head and
[00:50:18] Who would just have said to me meet them where they are
[00:50:21] Just meet them where they are and just listen to them and see them
[00:50:27] Validate them. Yeah, but don't interfere in in them
[00:50:32] Encourage them obviously, you know and getting back to
[00:50:35] What my purpose is and just create that environment to help them flourish and that safety to show their emotions because anger's a good emotion
[00:50:43] Right, it's not and if they learn that anger is not a good emotion that they're only loved when they're happy and joyful
[00:50:48] That's a terrible thing for kids to learn
[00:50:51] So yeah, it's sort of meet meet them where they are
[00:50:54] I mean, I'm sure if I was listening this going yep
[00:50:57] I got a
[00:50:57] I got 25 things that happened this week where I could have met them where they are better
[00:51:01] than I did
[00:51:03] I really like that concept a lot because it we have fixing brains like we we'd love
[00:51:08] To be smart too probably in a narcissistic way like we'd like to think we've got the answers to me
[00:51:13] I hear this and I'm like, I think sitting on your
[00:51:17] Urge to be right and like tell your kids that you're smart and that you know the answers
[00:51:21] And you know what they're going through
[00:51:23] That's as hard as turning up to pub trivia and knowing thinking you know the answer and going
[00:51:27] Great question
[00:51:28] Well seeing you there for the whole round of pub trivia and having them
[00:51:31] You know list countries that start with mo and going yeah, great question. I'm not gonna say
[00:51:37] Most epic like to just to not leap out with the answer. It's just such an urge that I definitely battle with
[00:51:43] Yeah
[00:51:44] I hear where you're coming from but like all this stuff we talk about like, you know simple but not easy and
[00:51:51] Totally, I think the yeah if how they're gonna learn
[00:51:55] If you're showing off to your kids with how much you know
[00:51:58] And odds are you're wrong? A lot of the time like
[00:52:02] To use pub trivia is an example
[00:52:04] You just get excited and you might you're probably not right and that's right. Yeah
[00:52:08] If you can flick the relationship from vertical, you know, which normally comes from not feeling that you're enough
[00:52:13] So you're either overcompensate or under compensating give them whatever they want. I guess that horizontal where
[00:52:19] You're equal in this relationship. You're on this journey together. You might have different roles
[00:52:24] But you're completely equal. I remember when the state told me she was pregnant
[00:52:28] There was a movie come out with 1989 called parent hood with um, Steve Martin with Steve Martin. Yeah, and um
[00:52:35] I remember a line in that movie where I think was counter-revs was playing the daggy boyfriend and and he said
[00:52:42] To his girlfriend's mum. He said, you know, you need a license to
[00:52:47] By gun you need a license to drive a car. You need a license to catch a fish
[00:52:50] But they'll let any old real dumb ass become a
[00:52:54] Dad
[00:52:55] And that kind of stopped me in my tracks and I go, yeah, what is the rules?
[00:53:00] There's no such thing as dad school as we said so outside of this podcast
[00:53:04] Where are we going to learn these things? It's just pure instincts, especially if my you know, my dad
[00:53:11] Maybe taught me some things. I don't want to continue on, you know that ugly parents syndrome
[00:53:15] Well, it's kind of unfulfilled desires pushed down from one generation to the next
[00:53:18] It's kind of well, where do we where do we learn these things? It's part instinct
[00:53:22] Obviously, but yeah, I've probably learned since my dad passed away pretty young
[00:53:26] I'm learning a lot through movies like we bought a zoo is on my favorite movies
[00:53:29] Right, there's so many beautiful scenes in that but but also music right
[00:53:33] Whether it's you know, cats in the cradle at one extreme to the father and son to it's funny
[00:53:37] When you think about it like I I'm the same I pick up so much as scraps
[00:53:42] And and at first I was a bit embarrassed about that
[00:53:45] But I think and I think a lot of that we've lot of feedback
[00:53:47] We get people listening to the show is that is what we're all doing. We are putting together scraps and
[00:53:53] I think that's okay. I think that's okay because
[00:53:56] That's that's how we learn totally that's how we learn and it's it's a massive
[00:54:00] It is thousands of ingredients that go into how we're trying to do it
[00:54:03] And I mean the most important ingredient is like you don't get a license
[00:54:05] But you also have never cared more about something in your life before
[00:54:10] You can get a lot the license to drive and not really care about driving
[00:54:12] You don't get a license to be a dad
[00:54:14] But especially I think the people listening to this and and the men and women, you know, that's because we're like
[00:54:19] The nerve it's touched in the people that listen is like, yeah
[00:54:23] We would desperately like to be better or at least minimize the amount of regret we have in future years
[00:54:29] Yeah, if we just let it sail past totally totally and from a from a mindset point of view
[00:54:35] I think if we can develop some tools for ourselves, I love your podcast
[00:54:39] In terms of the storytelling because when someone tells their story we resonate and our imagination goes crazy
[00:54:44] We picture individuals in those situations. The relatability is crazy
[00:54:48] But for ourselves if we can kind of catch ourselves in those moments when anxiety or fear kicks in
[00:54:54] We're comparing ourselves to other how other people dad or
[00:54:57] so forth
[00:54:59] the mantras that have definitely helped me along on the journey is
[00:55:04] You know screw it
[00:55:05] You're a good person and you're doing the best job that you can is one
[00:55:09] You can't make this shit up
[00:55:11] Definitely came back out in covet
[00:55:13] But you know if you got two kids and they've got gastro and their wing and pooing and vomiting and screaming at the same time
[00:55:19] Right, they've got fevers
[00:55:21] But they can't give them baby pan at all because they're not holding anything down
[00:55:23] It's like you can't make this shit up, right?
[00:55:26] So all the simplest one is just I've got this, you know, you know
[00:55:29] I mean perfect
[00:55:30] I don't have the answers and I'm gonna get it wrong
[00:55:32] And I think if you can acknowledge you are gonna get it wrong
[00:55:35] But you're open
[00:55:36] To learning and curious you'll find the way through and you might find it in so many different ways
[00:55:42] All right, you might find it in lyrics of a song or watching a movie or listening to a conversation or this podcast
[00:55:48] Right, but eventually if you're open to getting better and doing the best job you can
[00:55:52] I agree. I think that's leadership. I think that's progress. I think it's all yeah
[00:55:55] I think it's definitely it's definitely leadership
[00:55:57] It's definitely having a purpose mindset and for me
[00:55:59] They're the simple ingredients to being a great dad as well
[00:56:02] Well, Benny
[00:56:04] And I know you're cheating yourself. I think was highly unfounded. You're only half said vulnerability twice
[00:56:11] Um, that was really awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks everything you're doing as well
[00:56:15] Hey, mish is glad that he talked to another dad now. He's gonna say some other stuff, but he will be by himself
[00:56:24] Thank you so much ben
[00:56:25] Thank you as well for listening for the people listening to this thanks for everyone listening for the
[00:56:30] I for the passion with which people listen to this show with I man, I get so much out of it. They've had various
[00:56:39] Like numerous hundreds of little interactions that really like completely make my day make tims day who does it with me
[00:56:45] You know, it's it's the reason we do it. Um
[00:56:49] I recently had a guy at Darwin airport go make sure you give a shout out to the bloke with dreadlocks at Darwin airport
[00:56:54] Now I don't want to start a shout outs
[00:56:56] Competition, but I did love that moment because it was just another one of the random interactions that I'm lucky enough to have
[00:57:02] Where I bump into I bump into you guys in public people that listen to this show and
[00:57:07] And I get to talk to you about, you know, what the show means to you what you're doing on your
[00:57:12] mothering fathering
[00:57:14] Adventure or not even having kids or you know listening to this for for other reasons
[00:57:18] And they're always really beautiful stories. So thank you for listening. Thanks for the attention that you
[00:57:24] Bring into your own lives and doing this and I think it's got to be a good thing for the kids in our life
[00:57:29] Thank you to ben as well. Like man, there was some there was some awesome stuff in there. I really
[00:57:35] I think the thing that sticks out most for me about ben is again, I love having people on who are
[00:57:41] experts in their field
[00:57:43] And the reason I I enjoy talking to people like this and the point of this show is because I think in
[00:57:48] lots and lots of different ways they keep showing us that they don't have the answers like that
[00:57:53] You know when ben talks about leadership in the family about it's just about creating space to
[00:57:58] To allow the other people in the family to achieve their potential
[00:58:02] I think that's a really beautiful example of
[00:58:04] of
[00:58:05] Not needing to have the answers
[00:58:08] And in a funny way, I think we listen to stuff like this and we do shows like this
[00:58:11] We do podcasts like this to have the answers
[00:58:14] And then you kind of come right back around full circle to realize that you don't need the answers
[00:58:20] So yeah, I love that from ben. I love that he's not he's not trying to fix everything with the kids that you know
[00:58:25] That's how we all learn together. We're not trying to fix stuff
[00:58:27] We're just trying to be there with each other and and grow with each other really appreciate it ben
[00:58:31] Thank you for listening last episode is next episode
[00:58:35] We've got dr. Billy garvey back if you listen to season one, you will know that this is
[00:58:39] This is like the cheat sheet episode for the whole season. So
[00:58:43] Bring a pencil and we'll see you next time. Thank you
[00:58:50] How are the dad's dad
[00:58:52] This episode of how are the dad's dad was produced by tim barthly and his good friend hamish blake
[00:58:58] Our theme music is of course the star of the show apart from the guests and by the incredibly funny and clever tom cardy
[00:59:05] We recorded this on the lands of the war-unjury people of the cool and nation who have passed their parenting stories down for thousands of generations
[00:59:11] And we pay our respects if you want to drop us a line head to our website how are the dad's dad.com
[00:59:15] Thanks again for listening
[00:59:32] As always thank you to her it's our gorgeous sponsor for how are the dad's dad this season
[00:59:38] Of course with sponsorship comes
[00:59:41] A code we've never had this before i've never actually my whole career. I've actually never given away the code
[00:59:47] So it's an open a code
[00:59:48] But if you go to herds.com.au when you're booking a car forward slash hodd how are the dad's dad you get 25 percent off
[00:59:55] The base day right now that is a bloody good deal
[00:59:58] And i'm stoked to be able to offer it on to the valuable dad's mums uncles, arnie's
[01:00:04] Son's daughters whoever it is that's listening to this podcast hurts.com.au forward slash hodd
[01:00:10] And you get that discount it actually runs for a year
[01:00:12] I mean do it now obviously like so it makes me look good and makes the show look good
[01:00:16] Has an effect but i think if you look at the terms and conditions and they do apply and you should look at the website
[01:00:21] I think it actually runs
[01:00:23] For quite a while at discount, so you know one listen huge rewards from herds