How Maggie Dent Helps Dads Dad

[00:00:00] Hamish is a dad who loves to be a dad Uh oh, special opening song version for unique episode Hamish is still a dad who still loves to be a dad And he's still learning lots of things about being a dad

[00:00:15] But today he makes the rules cause he's not talking to a dad But am I bad in her words is an honorary dad Cause when you get someone this good you don't say no You get them all the same to help help other dads dad Helps other dad

[00:00:35] It's a slightly rejigged and remastered song Thanks to the incredible Tom Cardi for his lyrical Actually behind the scenes very fast turnaround on doing a revamped version of the song Because today's dad is our first person that's not a dad

[00:00:52] She is a mum but in her own words is an honorary bloke And has done some amazing amazing work with men and women All over Australia in the family space I'm a big fan of her, it's Maggie Dent If you don't know who Maggie Dent is

[00:01:08] You're about to bloody love her because she's just got an amazing handle on Not only family dynamics but I think relationship dynamics as well In a lot of different areas I loved this chat, I got so much out of it

[00:01:24] I mean if you are a fan of hers you know she's for a long time done a podcast called Parental as anything She's actually just started a brand new podcast called The Good Enough Dad I'm actually on her podcast as well so if you were just like

[00:01:37] Give us more of this sweet duet We exchange ourselves as guests on each other's podcasts But it's probably unconventional to at the top of a podcast to go and listen to other podcasts But man she's just so good in this space

[00:01:52] And even though we were originally I was like no We don't have experts on except when Billie comes on at the end of the year I think it's okay to break the rules again for someone like Maggie So look at us go We're camping one week

[00:02:06] We're getting non-dads on the next week on How Are The Dads Dad But I think you'll get a lot of this conversation I really loved it and I hope you enjoyed too Let's find out how Maggie Dent thinks we can dad

[00:02:28] Maggie Dent welcome to a very special episode of How Are The Dads Dad Which is really How Are The Maggie's Maggie Welcome Ah Hamish this is such a big thing You wouldn't believe how many messages I've got when you dropped my name

[00:02:44] When you were talking to Billy Garvey That people all of the boys mates and all of these men Were sending me messages saying oh my god you gotta go and talk to Hamish Yeah I mean I am part bloke so I'm a bit like a dad daddy

[00:02:56] I talk about that a lot in your work that you are part bloke But I mean regardless even if you're 0% I've been such a fan of your work and as have I'm sure many people listening

[00:03:06] It's one of the great voices that I think resonates with bloke's in particular In terms of a perfect mix of heart and practicality And you know you've walked the walk and you've got Let's have your dad stats for all your mum's stats for those that don't know

[00:03:23] I'm not a fan of that but I'm happy with reflex terminology But kids wise how many and how old? Okay so I have raised four awesome sons who are all now dads Which is pretty blemint amazing I come from a family in the wheatbelt in Western Australia

[00:03:37] There were six of us I was kind of one of the tail end after thoughts And just was blessed with a child who was deeply immersed And surrounded by a good bloke And I am so like my dad it's not funny

[00:03:51] Well it is because he had a really good sense of humour Which I really love and he taught me to fart well So it was a really great childhood really But I also wasn't excluded and treated in a different way on the farm

[00:04:03] We all had to do jobs, we all had to drive the ute As soon as we could get a pillow under us to help us We had to do stuff that you have to stay out there all day

[00:04:12] Whether it's picking up rocks or stoking the fire in autumn And I also learnt to kick a football really well And I don't cricket bat because seriously that's what we did my sad day mornings

[00:04:22] That was the language of the weekend because we lived in a long way out of town How important, I mean this isn't where I was expecting it to go today But just hearing that I'm like it's the doing stuff

[00:04:34] Like doing, I think we have a habit of thinking that doing things Is like what we have to get out of the way before we do the plan for the day or whatever I'm always amazed and I always keep coming back to the, especially with my kids

[00:04:48] The way I try and dad, I find that I'm rushing through things One of the errors I reckon I make is you rush through things So you can get to the other big thing that you plan But then you realise it is the doing stuff that is life

[00:05:00] That's the glue You are so true and kids know when you're It's about the presence of us Am I really present right here? Am I in the hurry mode because we're going to get ready to go to the park

[00:05:12] So therefore I'm going to get my kids dressed, get into the park And then it could rain anyway because it could turn to shit anyway We hold on to that big idea of the day Totally And we forget that it's the little moments that are the day

[00:05:26] I think it's one of the biggest challenges of parenting today Is that we kind of feel we need to know exactly what's going on all the time And to control it so that we can make sure we do a good job But that isn't how we raise humans

[00:05:40] And humans especially, either toddlers or teens Yeah they're not good with that sense of needing to be controlled And any parent regardless if it's a dad or it's a mum Will know about the doodle from the car to the door Right and we've got, well you probably

[00:06:01] Most dads would have a job they want to do immediately They have 55 jobs they want to do immediately And so we start getting really pissy in the moment Whereas that is one of the most sacred divine moments for that toddler

[00:06:16] As they, in their own time, explore the world in an unrushed way Picking up a dead leaf, you know squash snail or pausing Yeah You know we've just become so busy That we miss those moments and that's what I reckon

[00:06:35] Yeah I'm doing a much better job probably as a nanny Than I probably did even as a mum that was really aware of that Because I was on the farm There's always stuff to do And that comes up a lot in the conversations we have

[00:06:49] Where it's the, we always have the next job And then I think there's definitely wisdom in realising That they'll never not be the next job Yeah and I want to throw one thing in here for dads This has come up on a lot of our seminars

[00:07:07] And I think one of them, we do have to recognise I mean the neuroscience is trying to tell us There's not really a big difference between their brains But I can give you a lot of examples that would suggest otherwise Maybe it works differently

[00:07:19] But I'm going to go back to where we were in our earliest times The biological drive for men was not only to occasionally procreate Then your job is to go out there and kill mammoths to keep it safe

[00:07:31] But you also have to go and kill a deer for dinner Like large protein And if you're not doing that because there's no threat Your job then is to go out and practice killing So you do it really well So you really, you are very single focused

[00:07:43] All of us together for a project, bang, do it And then to the females, everything else Everything else, you're looking after the sick That's why we had this whole multi-taskingy kind of thing going on My wife always talks to me about the load

[00:07:58] She's like, you don't understand because I have got the load on my mind I've got the mental load And I probably go, no, I know about the load You're very good at it You handle it, I'm very appreciative of the load

[00:08:10] But I think I know about the load Just generally what's that? I'm doing this week at school How long does it take you to fall asleep, Hamish? I'm going to just bat out there I wear one of those rings at night that tracks your data

[00:08:25] Very fast, like four minutes I'm going to say So what I can see sometimes is Because at night, those mind ramps up That's where the load goes Not only is the mind going, oh man Look what I've got to do tomorrow No, I didn't do that really well

[00:08:44] I'm a terrible mother I shouldn't have said that like that And I can't believe that woman said that to me Could you just cut right in front of me? How rude was that? I'm like, there's not enough veggies I didn't eat enough broccoli today

[00:08:53] And oh my God, whose birthday is coming up? There's two birthday parties How are we going to get there? I'll have to organise with Hamish I can go there and I can go there And then we go, oh my God

[00:09:00] I wonder if they're going to get into university Or how are they going to And then I want to revisit the birth Because that was traumatic And I want to get just That is what the brain does sometimes That's a woman's brain It is

[00:09:11] So what happens is also Our beautiful male lays down beside us And goes, takes a sigh and he's sound asleep Because he's in the sleep box We're in the everything box And I think there's that pragmatism Of men that may have come from those early days

[00:09:25] As well like your job is to fix that Because it's broken Or your job is to bring the deer for dinner And we'll get everything else ready So there's your job Do it, tick, I've achieved So therefore I'm worthy And it's the number of times

[00:09:40] That Dads have said to me Oh, just great, I've gone home I've written notes in my daughter Because we weren't getting on very well Written a little love note in the lunchbox For a few days I'm taking her on a date in the weekend

[00:09:52] Man, we're just totally different Right, I'm going to keep doing that And then you go on holiday And come back and you forgot you did it before Right, and it's what used to happen In farming communities I did a lot of work out there

[00:10:02] They'd go home with three specific things They could start tomorrow And they'd nail it And everyone noticed the shift in the house And then they have to go out and put a crop in Which takes, you know, a couple of months So they're not out They're actually disappeared

[00:10:16] They're almost like, you know, never around And then when they come back after that They've forgotten completely I think that's really interesting Because that's sort of what we're doing here on this You didn't intentionally do it No, but it's what we're doing here On this podcast too

[00:10:28] And where, you know The whole idea is to share these good ideas Amongst blokes and amongst women Who are listening to be like Yes, that is something I can easily adopt into my repertoire But then it's the stickability too

[00:10:40] Like, how do we make things stick a bit better? How good is texting And how good are pictures? So one of the things that I know has made a difference around You know, when a guy said to me one night He said, you know, dang

[00:10:54] We've been married, you know, 16 years We've got three kids And if, you know, she calls me on the way home And says, you know We need the pasta sauce And we need this Man, I still can't remember which is the right one

[00:11:06] So you know what, we had a chat about why I feel really, I hate letting it down I feel like I let it down When I get the wrong pasta sauce Which doesn't sound like a big thing But for a woman carrying the load

[00:11:16] It's just enough to give us the absolute whoops At that moment Because it's the best one that I like Is together they've gone through their pantry And taken photographs That are now on his phone Now, for the piece of that

[00:11:30] I know it sounds like not a big deal But for a man who's, you know, racing home After a big day or been to sport training Or picking the kids up You get that message You don't want to deliver the wrong goods

[00:11:42] It's just I need a little bit of remembering what it is So say for the farmer that has picked up The three tips of, you know I'm a woman of connects better I want to be more present But then because we have this mind

[00:11:53] That does let go of recent improvements I find it happens to me too Like I'm like, you know, I love this idea I'm going to incorporate this Six months later, I'm like, where did that idea go? Because I really felt like at the time

[00:12:05] I was going to do that every day Are there ways to Like is it important to keep kind of reiterating Keep coming back to it to keep to even I don't know, do you write it down Do you build that practice? That is something that definitely

[00:12:17] Then you'll lose wherever you wrote it So that's not always a guarantee I can't remember where that is What I really think is the shift That we need to do culturally now Is that we're not We need to see parenting as a team event

[00:12:28] And that you might, you know As soon as the other half identifies You've just come back into the space And there are a few balls you've dropped It's when do we have that conversation And how do we have it? You know, like shouting across

[00:12:41] You've just forgotten it again There's not helpful for anyone Do you know what I reckon This is might be a good point To talk about something That one of the more frequent bits Of feedback I reckon is from That I get from having started this pod

[00:12:55] Is from New Dads And let's say in that first sort of Zero to eight months Or let's call it zero to a year The team aspect Because it's not something you can Prepare for being a brand new dad Or mum But because through biological necessity

[00:13:11] The birth is as it should be All about the mother To the point where even like in hospitals The father is and it's nice to have We obviously need the mother here And her well-being and the baby's Well-being is the absolute priority As it should be

[00:13:27] But then that's probably where it begins In a lot of guys this feeling of like Alright, well I'm nice to have around I'm ancillary but I'm not essential Because the system has to be That the mother and the baby are the Core priority because nothing can happen

[00:13:42] Without those two being in sync And then of course it's nice if the dad's around And then that initial Because the mum is going through The wildest thing a human being Can go through from birth to then breastfeeding And raising the infant

[00:13:58] There's that feeling amongst guys where they I think have a real confusion as to Where and how they fit in And then also a guilt because of course In the face of watching the mother Of your child do something so enormous It's not your place to complain

[00:14:14] To go, I used to be special in this house But I'm not around anymore I think a lot of guys go through that in silence I think there's a few big things underneath that And that's the very first thing I want to give some really good news

[00:14:29] That I found from neuroscience Is that at the birth of the first child For a guy, your brain goes Man we've got to grow a lot more brain cells Because your job is to keep this alive And at the moment you don't have enough brain cells

[00:14:42] So there is a great growth in the window You're talking about Secondly the hormones are crazy for us women We don't even know what's going down either And so I often find that dads Well all males get really upset with big emotions

[00:14:56] That we can't, we don't know quite what to do with And how to support them And so that's another one of those spaces That I either just walk away and let a cry Maybe that's what I need to do

[00:15:06] Or do I reach out and hold it and make it look You know like we've got to have a conversation When we're not in that state That says when you get really upset What do you want me to do

[00:15:15] I just want to know what's the right thing for you I'm sorry, is that a really key part though The not in that state thing Because I think again like I'm super guilty of this Fall into the trap of trying to fix the state

[00:15:28] While you're in the state Totally, your fixers And then guess what men tell me all the time Is I just feel like I'm failing I can't stop the baby crying I've taken it for that late feed Which I can tell you now Is unbelievably fabulous

[00:15:44] If you can do any one of the feeds Ensures the mother gets more sleep No question And you thought one child's hard enough To having a couple of toddlers when you have the next one Or having twins that's just magnified

[00:15:58] I think we just there's no failing in parenting I think that's one of my common things Everyone there are times you know healthy babies cry a lot You're not doing a damn thing wrong You know make the cup of tea Make sure they're drinking enough water

[00:16:11] Is it warm enough do the practical stuff But you know when it's not happening Is what else can I do Because I'm feeling a little bit like I'm not doing enough And I want to do more I love it

[00:16:21] You've got you've had so many of those honest conversations on here It's also the practicality of You know how do I store the breast milk Well and which of the baby ties The one from my wife doesn't work for me So I've got to you know having conversations

[00:16:37] With other dads about what did you And guess what we're doing it Men are actually having cups of coffee talking about Being a dad whether it's a new dad And when the old other dads Have got a couple of kids come in

[00:16:48] This is how men have often shit We didn't never talk about parenting or having babies I see that big shift as a big part of Giving the guidelines from a male perspective On what can help And then I want to make sure I'm shouting out to them

[00:17:03] There are times that women have a tendency To think something needs to be a certain way And I remember one of my boys say to me When his first was about ten months old he said So is there really a problem

[00:17:15] If the ones he goes over the leggings Or under mum and I went no No life threatening thing is occurring in that moment So there's a dad way and the mum way And they are both equally valid And we need to be okay with that

[00:17:30] Can you see how we let go We have to let go sometimes Totally and I think Dad's way is okay Is it you know in that strange early days With the guys you know the relationship With your partners changed so much Is it large

[00:17:43] You know is one of the steps back You know having these conversations And going okay we're doing a whole new thing here I mean this is I think it catches a lot of guys By surprise that this woman that you married And like having fun weekends away with

[00:17:57] And then had a wedding and a honeymoon And then that was life Things were great And then suddenly now you are a team Doing this really hard thing Is I mean there's no easy way through it But is the fertile soil of that environment

[00:18:12] Being able to have that conversation with each other And I'm also going to touch on something That you haven't yet But there's this layer of grief That men experience That they don't articulate That I've just I'm desperately missing That connection And I've worked with couples at times

[00:18:30] Where they're just missing each other Missing what was before Missing the spaces that no longer exist Because it's and you know that You know there are men who get postnatal depression You know because there's this And sense of inadequacy So you know the pragmatism

[00:18:47] If what I'm doing isn't making anything better I feel like I'm failing And I don't want to fail This is the woman I've chosen She's the one I love And that frustration is really palpable So sometimes Dads say they just get really angry Instead of sad

[00:19:06] Instead of frightened Instead of confused All of the feelings that they're very valid Especially the first time around And that's what we're hoping to raise Another generation of our boys Where you don't have to be stoic When these big things happen

[00:19:23] It's okay for you to feel frightened and sad And it's okay for you to cry Because you miss what you had Even though you love what you got But what you had was something special That you hope you could keep forever

[00:19:35] And is your advice to couples in that situation Finding a way to For the guy to be able to express it To his partner Because I think a lot of guys feel guilt Certainly the guys I've spoken to One of the common things that comes up

[00:19:49] They're like, I'm feeling this And But then I'm looking at my poor wife Baby mama, a partner who Is sleep deprived And her body's a feeding machine And it's like that seems like a very selfish thing To bring up with my partner

[00:20:05] To put my needs on the table But what would your advice be? And yet something interesting happens in that space It's one of those things We were chatting about before That when men feel they have to hide My sense of inadequacy When I have to hide

[00:20:22] The fact that something awful happened When I was a little boy That I've never shared Because I'm worried you won't be able to love me When we share that with the woman we love Women quite often just become these It's quite different for the way we perceive it

[00:20:36] We are just so fiercely going to have your back Because you have been a layer of intimacy Which we are so hungry for So it's not just those wonderful moments In the sack that we used to have It's when a man can be really honest And real about

[00:20:55] And the feelings that aren't shared With anybody else on earth It brings you so much closer together You'll probably be quite staggered With the opposite thing that you think is going to happen I love that I think there's probably a lot of guys

[00:21:10] Who are very grateful for you saying that And also sometimes in the dark it's easier Like do you know what I mean? Yeah It's the same with trying to talk to a teenage boy About sex and porn and things like that

[00:21:21] You know it's pretty tricky when you're standing near them But if you're in the car Or if it's a pillow talk in the dark Gently It's easier for them to You know because we keep thinking don't we? I get really cross that You know boys are tough

[00:21:36] And they don't feel absolutely boys and men Feel as deeply As deeply as women They've been conditioned to shut it down And hide it But also they sometimes lack The capacity to express it Because we also You know when they were younger It takes longer than girls

[00:21:54] And I think the other thing around that is You know can we talk about what happens When a woman in those moments or any moment Who is the mother of your child Or is the mother looking after the children in the house Something's gone down that's just

[00:22:10] That tipping point You know we've all got one haven't we And all of a sudden there's a very Shouty vent occurring That is quite loud And often irrational Can I explain why? Oh my god yes If you could explain venting I am all ears

[00:22:28] So what we now know is that girls and women When our limbic brain gets fired up So we get really upset Then the next centre in the brain to fire up Is the word centre Right so in other words almost immediately Outcomes this stuff

[00:22:44] And some of it's not Logically processed through the prefrontal It's vitriol quite often Targeted at the safest human in the room Usually the partner That's interesting Yeah I know But it is because you are the safest person I've never really thought about that

[00:23:02] Yeah I know it's a different perspective isn't it So secondly for men and boys When you get really fired up And what doesn't matter what's triggered it Whether it's vulnerable or it's because of some conflict The next part of the brain is the body

[00:23:17] So the shove, the kick You see it in movies all the time You see it with boys a lot They want, it comes out of the body The brain doesn't activate The word centre for quite some time after So one of the best things

[00:23:31] For us to realise in these moments Is either Jen just doing a slightly different version Of dealing with the conflict And I really want, if we can It's not easy to have Like either you be attacked Or the whole everything that you love is being attacked

[00:23:46] In that heated moment It just needs to come out So the cortisol drives this verbal vitriol So if we can bend our knees and just hold that space for them And hold that space And then it doesn't last super long I've never thought of this before

[00:24:02] But try and see it as a compliment That you're the safest person in the room I'm the safest person I can handle this I've got her back right And it will cool down And once it's gone Often there will be a softening

[00:24:16] And then when it softens a bit Do you want a cup of tea babe Or a glass of wine or a hug In other words What men often think I have to do Is work out how I can help her fix it And if you interrupt, man

[00:24:30] It's not what we need in that moment However If the man has gone into the angry state Their anger can also be quite scary And stuff, we often kick things So what we know is that's not the time For you to talk about whatever the conflict is

[00:24:47] And I keep on saying it It's anywhere up to 12 hours To 24 hours for little boys and older boys That later we come back and say Can we revisit this tomorrow You know that's such a good tip Because I think That's just definitely one worth of reckon

[00:25:03] Pausing on thinking about the revisit Of the issue In a quiet moment over a cup of tea I definitely go through the surge Probably because I like efficiency I like labour saving And I'm thinking about the moment now I wonder if we could

[00:25:20] Put a bow on this and learn the lesson And do all the learnings and all the growing In this window and then we're done Because that idea of going I'm going to earmark this and come back to it tomorrow You know There's that worry that

[00:25:34] When you get to tomorrow and everything's great And you're eating wheat biscuits again Tomorrow morning and you're back around The kitchen table There's that tendency I think to say to yourself We're good and we don't go back And sometimes you can because seriously You know it could be

[00:25:50] The lead up to a menstrual cycle And one of the reasons again that we can get so upset Leading up to that And I learnt this from neuroscience Is that GABA turns off And GABA is a gamma butyreotic amino acid Which also turns off in teenagers

[00:26:05] It's our impulse control Gotcha So there's no GABA in teen boys Which is why they do the domino stuff sometimes It comes back on around 18s You've got no excuse Hamish But also for women in the lead up It often turns off

[00:26:21] So they're often a lot more volatile And impulsive in the window Not because they're deliberately wanting to But because GABA isn't that interesting So when you get a reason I always feel it's easy For us to understand it Lease makes you feel less alone

[00:26:35] Can I also dive into this Why does it take a bit of time Because there's this fabulous woman Alison Armstrong who has done a lot of studies Around men And when she explained this concept It made so much sense Because I've worked with a lot of men

[00:26:51] Around palliative care, death and dying Have lost a partner Or they've had a stillborn baby And what we know is That quite often men process grief And trauma differently I've worked with communities After bushfires and floods And quite often I'm asked

[00:27:09] Why are they so upset with just the men Because they want to understand Why they're feeling so crappy Three or four months in Because grief isn't a sign of weakness It's a sign of being a human Who is dealing with layers Uncrazy layers of emotions

[00:27:25] That are linked to a major loss And what we When we identify with them You're supposed to feel like this Whether it's grief, Situational distress Because if you've just been a part Of all those beautiful dads Trying to save the community And the school burnt down

[00:27:45] You don't feel like a hero You feel like you let your community end So can you see how that can be Kind of like how do I deal with that Right So what I'm going to suggest is that Alison talks about a well

[00:27:59] And in actual fact men are not shallow thinkers You're actually really quite deep And you don't create a thought Without a lot of thought And then you tuck it down into the well So what can happen in her intimate relationship She might ask you a random comment

[00:28:13] About oh so what do you reckon about You know XYZ And so you go as a man Right down into your well To find out what your well thought Idea is of it Because you've paused She thinks she didn't hear and she goes No I just asked you

[00:28:31] What do you say you come back out of the well Get the same question go back down Down into the well And you're still trying to find out your deeply well thought out Response and she's gone Oh you're obviously not listening and walks out

[00:28:43] This is another reason why the 12 hours Allows A lot of men to be able to work out What I really What really matters in this moment Why did I get upset In that moment why did I feel invalidated Why did I feel A failure in that moment

[00:29:01] That's my reason And then we bring that back up again In a moment when Our partner is not In a venting moment We can make significant changes In our relationship So interesting the idea of You know coming back with time But then also probably time to formulate

[00:29:21] The words I think a lot of guys just feel Sort of stuck in the moment It does take people time to articulate To come back in that 12 or 24 hour window And with our kids too to go I've thought about the words now

[00:29:33] Because I often feel with my kids when I'm trying To explain a concept Or talk About a learning that I think is Like one of the big life skills You know what was this freestyle There's a voice in my head going

[00:29:47] What are you doing? Do we really think this I don't know if we think this But we're spouting it like wisdom So much of the time when I'm In a recovery space People just say oh they just need to go to counseling And so some of the things

[00:30:02] For men is revisiting The trauma makes them actually Stay in the process of recovering Longer because you've just Bought it all back up again So many, it's often time that They use, they keep thinking as they But they have to have quiet time They drive the car

[00:30:20] Or they go surfing or they go fishing They're actually processing Stuff In a different way to what most women do And this might be obvious But would you say that when you come back After that 12, 24 hour pause To talk about something that's still on your mind

[00:30:37] Will give a better Better perspective, better insight You know the more honest you can be The better Absolutely That's the goal Absolutely Yeah And that's not what we condition Our little boys still at times You know I Sometimes see them Use your words when they're three and four

[00:30:58] And I'm thinking A is in an agitated, dysregulated State and upset right now B, he's not allowed to put his hand On his penis to soothe himself down C, he's got someone who isn't Very warm towards him Telling him to use words that he doesn't have

[00:31:14] Right, no wonder he wants to go and kick a wall And then that little boy is inside all of us What would be your advice I'd like to say You know, talking about little boys If there has been a really big moment Something like 24 hours later

[00:31:30] Good language to use What have you found is a good way to re-enter A conversation, let's say with kids Let's say sons and daughters But if you've had a heated moment There is something that still sort of unresolved from it What's a good way to start it

[00:31:44] In your experience I think we've got to always remember That connection Any correction before any redirection We connect Boys are particularly susceptible to physical connections Rather than necessarily words Because they could be in a single focus moment Of building their duplo Or watching something

[00:32:06] Right, and timing is really big for boys Yeah, so we've got to make sure We've got something that is a time that suits them And we've connected and we're going to build rapport first So sometimes You know, it might be a gentle punch on the arm

[00:32:20] And say, hey dude Got time for a chat with your dad Or one of the other ones Is walking opens boys mouths Particularly, especially with food as well If you can do that one It's really helpful And for girls they can talk most of the time About anything

[00:32:38] Because I don't forget anything Can I share that one beautiful story That came from a mum Who's...the dad had heard He'd talked to Richard Fidler About from boys to men About communicating with boys When they were really struggling And they'd had a fort in your old boy

[00:32:56] That had so many, he's had two suspensions Another glad is just come home The school was trying to... They had been punishing him, grounding him And trying to get him to change his behaviour And the dad walked in and said Hey, I've just heard this lady on

[00:33:10] I'll talk to you later love He came in and said, hey dude And the son walks out a bit suspiciously You know, fort in your old boy going What's going on up here And he walked, so walking And moving the body often helps open the mouth

[00:33:24] Because the body then has let the word Send to come back online Gone up, they've had a bucket of chips And had a bit of a light moment He didn't interrogate him at all But it was on the walk back Halfway down on the walk back

[00:33:38] The boy just started to cry And he said to his dad 11 boys keep belting me up dad And they've told me if I dobb on them They're gonna cut me And he just held his son And cried with his son And by the time he's walked home

[00:33:54] His son's in a different space He's walked in the door and he said Who would have thought a walk and a bucket Of chips could bring our boy back There's so much there isn't there It's like what we go back to That's actually the little things in life

[00:34:08] Not the rushing to have the big conversation It's the doing That is the glue Dad was finally safe enough So it's always the connection place And I think eye jokingly as a mother You know there were times I had monosyllabic sons Obviously And I realised there was

[00:34:28] Times, I just had to shut up Right, there's just too many words Sometimes But I wanted them to know That I was there so sometimes I Had to get a little bit of a treat on their foot As I walked past Or I bumped them a bit

[00:34:44] And if they were sitting on the couch I'd just sit on them randomly Now they're all crazy things That I've learnt off my dad Because he would often do non-verbal connections Right And you know the fart The well time fart

[00:35:00] It's a language between a lot of boys and men And they use it at different times Really appropriately The thing is The most vulnerable part of us As children is do my parents love me And girls work it out Pretty well

[00:35:16] They just measure it up and they kind of They've got a pretty good grip on it But our sensitive boys Especially if they've disappointed Their parents Broke the window Didn't do well in the maths test They can feel That they're not enough

[00:35:34] I've let them down to how can they love me So one of the things It's been probably 14 years Since I recommended Bedtime rituals That when you take your son to bed Take turns but you don't do it Obviously if you're a bit crabby with him

[00:35:50] Because it won't come out very good But as you're tucking men after that fifth reading Of that same book that you think is as boring As Bat Poo but keep reading the same one Because that's respecting connection Is your same mate

[00:36:02] Do you know I love you more than every star in the night sky? I love you more than every grain of sand On every beach in the whole wide world And I love you more than all the hairs on all the bears Because our boys pragmatism goes

[00:36:12] Man that's a big number Right? Big And within a few days I've had parents tell me How the difference in their boy Now they know how big our love is They will say you love me more Than all the bums and all the fishes

[00:36:30] You know and all these other quirky ones But the shift verbalising How much You can love me when I muck up Because I'm not sure I can love me I do that with my kids And there's a part of me that's just like

[00:36:46] You go is this sinking in but you just go I mean if you had to bet On doing it or not doing it There's a part of me that's like This has got to move the needle somewhere It needs to be so deeply embedded When they're 14

[00:37:00] You just have to say remember the stars dude Remember the sand This is another area I wanted to talk to you about Because I think at the heart of all of this And the bits that resonate for me

[00:37:10] The most getting to do this show and that I love Because obviously I've got little kids Five and eight and lucky enough To have people on that have got much older kids And the bits of dating Or parenting that I have the maximum respect for Are

[00:37:26] The effort that goes into Retaining the connection as the kids get over And because I just think that's the most critical part Because I think at the heart of it You talk about this a lot in your work is Almost like the number one measure of success is

[00:37:41] Are we the person that the kids turn to Because I'm sure a lot of people listening to this Would go when I was 17 And she'd hit the fan I did not turn to my mum or dad Or both of them And yet we have

[00:37:55] People listening again that have little kids You're like but I want to be that person for my kids And there's like thousands of things That funnel into that one final result Of being the safe option Of being the trustworthy option Because we're terrified of having a wall

[00:38:11] Between the kids not being able to communicate Without kids as they get on I think that part of the pain I feel That's the pain of having your kids get older Is this What was once like an undersea Fibro optic internet cable level of communication

[00:38:26] Just is dwindling down to a thin morse code wire That may or may not work Depending if there's a bird sitting on the wire Like I lost this communication And you can see it happening And then obviously once you're into the teenage years That's the extreme part

[00:38:41] So that's why I really like dad dates That keep going that don't ever stop Commit yourself to If it's not, you know, I've got multiple children You have them together But we never not have that moment We keep it happening Do you know what I mean?

[00:38:55] We just keep that happening And the connections of what you started early You know, I said to, I sang Seeker's Songs And Peter Paul and Mary with my dad On those long trucks, trips and tractor trips And so anytime I want to feel close

[00:39:10] To my dad who has been dead 25 years I just put that music on And I kept saying that You can build these connections profoundly In the first five and six years of life And you can see that you're so busy Do you share with your kid?

[00:39:24] Yeah, and so I had this dad come up to me After the seminar and he said, oh my God I've been crying up the back And I said, why? And he said, well, I used to take my matriot

[00:39:32] He used to take my daughter with me in the youth You know, and off we go And I used to, I'm sorry I didn't do You know, the Wigglesy stuff And all that crap because I didn't like it And I didn't know the words

[00:39:42] But AC DC, they're my man, right? By five, she knew all the lyrics All the songs, right? And he could hardly get the words And he said, I just wanted to tell you that I've just come back from Sydney And I've taken my 19 year old daughter

[00:39:55] And we've been to AC DC Man, it was amazing And that's what I just I'm sobbing, he's sobbing He's a tradie who just took on one thing And ran with it, right? And that will keep you over that bridge Whatever it is, fishing with them Just watching some

[00:40:12] Even gaming together If it's the thing that you laugh about You just got to keep doing it Not drop the ball when they start their individuation And is it common to feel that resistance Where they start to go, I'm not understanding that anymore Yeah

[00:40:26] And is that the bit where it's essential to trick people? That's good So what else, what can we do? Because this, I ain't going nowhere I'm not letting go of this rope And I am going to say that The work that Dr. Bruce Robinson's done

[00:40:39] After his book Dad and Daughter He wrote years ago Here's the urologist in WA And in a minute at their death One of their biggest regrets Was their relationship with their daughters So he created 10 years ago Their fatherhood project Which is all over Australia

[00:40:53] That's helping our dads be the connected dad But what we know for girls The warm connected relationship with Dad Because I had them sobbing in my counselling room Like I had a great dad, now he's disappeared His two skaters going to touch me

[00:41:07] In a way that's not okay Or he doesn't know how to understand me now And so he's gone And I'm not knowing where'd my dad go He's doing it out of respect In a way, right? And what Bruce found in his research Is that the warm connected relationship

[00:41:21] To a dad prior to puberty Means they menstruate later They have sex later Because they don't go looking for love In the wrong places They've already got it Their sense of self-worth Is stronger Their self-esteem is stronger And they navigate mixed environments So much better

[00:41:37] So can you see We've got research that shows Don't disappear out of your daughter's life But work out your own unique way How that will be And then if you don't know Write a note and say Or write a note to your son And say, look

[00:41:51] I want to be a better dad Can you give me three tips? You write it down We'll catch up next week What are the three things I could do a bit better Because I want to be a better dad Pragmatism Straight away Pragmatism is like

[00:42:03] This is a solvable one Because it is It appeals to our brains Because I'm sort of like It's a game of connection And it is a game There will be a solution To the puzzle Even when it seems like there's not Two other things Really big things

[00:42:18] No matter whatever happens You call me I've got your back And then that other one Which is the one Like I said It can be sometimes hard If you've been raised With a parenting style That wasn't that Is you stop your kids As teenagers every now and then

[00:42:33] And just remember Your dad loves you Just absolutely beyond everything Right? You just keep telling them You love them Even though they go Whatever You know They have to hear it We actually had a really beautiful Email come in That just popped back into my head

[00:42:47] Occasionally people write to the show And they share very beautiful stories But there was You know A now a woman But was talking about When she was a girl And a teenager And her dad would always say She left the house If she was going out

[00:42:58] And she was like At the time I didn't really get it But you know She now sees the wisdom of it And I think it's probably A little bit pertinent to share it He would always say Don't forget who you are I love it

[00:43:08] Don't forget who you are Which I really like And I was like Well I'm definitely stealing that Yeah, got that one Because it comes back to If you remember If you remember I probably won't But I always have best intentions With this show But it always

[00:43:20] It comes back to that thing of going You know We The other thing for Like all of this is Trying to Make our kids believe The reality That we love them Just as they are Because the whole world Is telling them I've got to be someone else

[00:43:34] And they're peer groups telling them I've got to be someone else Even from a little age And we are then Just like I feel like we're just like Frantically trying to keep back The tide To tell them Yeah We just love you You just as you are

[00:43:46] And I already see it Like with my Little boy In kind of like Going through the middle Of primary school I don't know if this is common To all kids But I'd be interested to get Your take on it They start coming home From school

[00:44:00] As a different person And they're Because they're trying on Different styles of communication Because that's how They've been talking to their friends And there's that There's that little Hang of worry of going That's not how We used to talk Do I shift? Do I wait for this

[00:44:15] To fade away? Am I trying to get back To like the real connection? That's my confusion At the moment Yeah, of course they do They're copying everything And I think What we're finding is a lot of It's a lot of our boys In the gaming world

[00:44:27] To game with bunches Of friends Who come from beautiful homes The foulest language Is coming out of the room Because that's what's happening In their collective online And their learning language That they wouldn't normally learn But it's being part of The boys group And the cred boots

[00:44:41] So that's one aspect I'm not having to go to YouTube I'm a big fan of YouTube But it's There is some really F***ing YouTube To be honest Because it's So much of what Like little boys watch Is like People playing games And talking over them

[00:44:55] And that has become That has become the language pattern Of any But we keep reminding them Remember they're not words We have around home That's not okay in our home We just keep doing it But we don't have to punish them We just do little reminders

[00:45:08] Remember that's not a word We use in our home Just keep on doing it So it doesn't become The new habit Is that a good thing To come out to that phrase Our home Because it reinforces Like we have ways Of doing things here And we have values

[00:45:20] Even if they tell you to get Yeah Because it's actually more like It's like Not that my kids Have any idea of what the game is But it's like that thing of You know, they're watching people Like play Fortnite and games like that And they're

[00:45:33] It's that kind of like It's the lingo It's the toughest lingo Yeah And it's like the trash talking And stuff But without understanding the context What kind of makes us Laugh a little bit behind the clock So it's like there's no context To knowing That that's just a

[00:45:46] We're biologically wired As children to model On other people's behaviour Including what we see online Yeah And I guess that That raises the bar for us To be a better model Yeah, damn God, that puts it really high, doesn't it? With your kids They're now, you know

[00:46:02] They're now well into adulthood But one thing that I'm a big fan of Is, you know And you talk so much about Core memories and really Whereas we always suffer from this illusion We're going to have plenty of time later To make memories Did you

[00:46:16] What were some of the trips or Adventures or things That bonded you Or family together growing up Oh, look Making memories that matter We definitely went back to the farm a lot So I had the boys immersed in You know, the mud and chaos

[00:46:30] And coonacking and swimming in freezing cold dams Where their peanuts shrunk off You know, we did all that Because I wanted them to have those But as I was getting towards their late teens And a couple of left home I thought, you know I've worked in funerals

[00:46:41] And what I heard people say so often Was I thought I had more time So I had an epiphany one day And I thought, no Just in case You know, I can't wait If I'm going to make enough money To take them on a holiday So I...

[00:46:55] Yep, Jetstar had some cheap flights To Hawaii, they're all surfers So I thought, I'm going to take them to North Shore Right, because I want them to one day Look back not on all my mistakes But on something that was good And it was unbelievable

[00:47:08] Watching my boys in that space Where their heroes were Now, I accidentally planned it Where as a triple crown Like all the world's best surfers Were in North Shore So on the days when they weren't competing They were surfing at the beach

[00:47:26] In front of the house I booked Needless to say That was... And I said to them at the end That'd be a great fluke Right, isn't that amazing? And I said to them at the end of that So this wipes out all the bad things

[00:47:37] I've ever done, you know And they said, yeah cool Totally, all done And then I mean I had two maxed out credit cards I just decided life's too precious And I might not have this opportunity again But what I love about that Why surfing trip is

[00:47:54] Do you surf? Or was it just... Nobody can drop on them off For a lot of years I'll give you that top Sitting freezing my bits off at a beach But I did it because I saw a spark in my son's eyes When they came out of surfing

[00:48:07] That I didn't see outside school Or outside me coaching them in basketball So I wanted to stoke the spark And especially for kids with... Sorry, parents with little kids I think we know enough now That we're looking for the spark But that's... It's different Spark hunting is rare

[00:48:25] And yeah, it's not a full neon sign It's just going to be a little spark For girls it can be different You've got to find it And it might not be academic But it can help Find their spark Stoke their spark You tell them their eyes light up

[00:48:38] When they're doing something they love Geez, I mean again That's one of those ones where I was like That's a bit of a holy grail None of mine can sing Because it's not one of mine I'll give you the tip

[00:48:48] Can I say one other thing that can happen with You know, I talked about being loving to our kids As we're taking them to bed But when you've got a child who's pushing boundaries Right, getting into trouble a bit at school Doesn't matter what age, girl or boy

[00:49:01] You know, you can't do a bedtime ritual Because you really pissed at them, right? But I'm going to say how did they know As they head off to bed That we still got their back And so I've talked for a long time About the surprise bedroom attack

[00:49:14] And it's been the dads who've given me the best feedback So you kind of wait for five or ten minutes After they've gone to sleep And then you race and you throw yourself on them And you tickle the hell out of them Blow raspberries in their ears

[00:49:24] And they'll fight you and everything And eventually, you know After you've got them giggling and laughing You leave the room And if you can drop a fart even better But what we've found is that that child Has now felt really connected Even though they've buggered up

[00:49:37] And the schools rung, right? They still feel that connection But what's beautiful is the dads Who've gone to extreme levels and done a triple pike Or ploughed their arm through the plaster wall Who've broken the bed Well, that then becomes a family memory

[00:49:52] That is also, you might have to fix things But it's just that every now and then Being absolutely, unpredictably ridiculous And silly And silly Lightens our heart and builds connection And I think we've got to keep it light Round home And I reckon that's like again

[00:50:09] Like simple, not easy That's the tough work that I know The vast majority of this lies ahead of me But I find myself in this state too Because somebody is just like I just don't feel like that But those are the hardest moments to just go

[00:50:21] Gotta find a way to break out of this Because they're upset, we're upset Because of course you're going through all your own Shit and projections And you're your own child Or your trauma is coming up And everyone's like very just got frowns on

[00:50:37] And thinking about the bad stuff in life Like that is the moment The more as well, like one of the things That pops up on the show And I think from very experienced campaigners Who've done it well Is that concept of the power of silliness

[00:50:50] Yeah, it's so powerful and childhood It triggers different neurochemicals in the brain And it's not something my dad ever did But it's, I think to myself Well, we do get it from I don't know But I think to myself Maybe it's just that inverse reaction of going

[00:51:04] Well, there is something This is what I would have liked There is something powerful in this And this is maybe what I would have liked Because I think back going Gee, if my dad did a tickle attack at night Yeah That would have changed the game

[00:51:14] Completely would have shook my world So one of the things that I said Challenged dad's in the seminars is You know, on those times you're reflecting On whether you made a good choice Not a good choice as a dad Just ask yourself

[00:51:27] Am I being the dad I wished for When I was four I think that's so much about What this show is Right, and you know How do I get to be that dad If I don't read books, right? I mean my books are way too fat

[00:51:39] And most dads aren't really big I'm probably about 10% like to read them Even when they've been highlighted Put next to the dunny With a, you know what I mean Please read this And also, you know They get tagged into things online Please read them

[00:51:53] Because she wants you to read that And I had the dad come up to me In Perth And I'm going to use the word freaking But he used the other one That rhymes with duck Little guy in his tradie You know, like his high-bears jacket

[00:52:05] Came up to me and said, oh, Maggie You're freaking amazing I wanted to tell you what's been going on And my dad was an asshole Not only did he beat us He shamed us He hit us He hit our mommy

[00:52:15] It was just I never want to be that dad But you know what happened I've got two beautiful kids And every now and then he comes at my mouth I can't believe my dad's coming out of my mouth I don't want to be that dad

[00:52:23] And then my wife showed me One of your videos And I didn't realise You had a whole lot of them So it's Smoco over the last four or five months Instead of just yarning on I just plug in and I watch your videos

[00:52:34] And he said, and it's been in the last three or four weeks That you come out of my mouth now Not my asshole dad And I'm being the dad I want to be And he's crying and I'm crying And I'm hugging this little man

[00:52:46] Who dropped that many F-bombs You wouldn't believe it And I whispered in his ear And he's getting more sex And he said, yeah, get a lot more sex Because my Mrs is so proud of me And I think that's the challenge for dads Is you've been the dad

[00:53:00] You really yearn for it And if you're not, you can be That's why you're doing this Yeah, that's 100% I think that's what this is all about Because there is that feeling of going Well, how do I break the cycle? It's all unconscious And without

[00:53:13] And it's not necessarily about throwing your own dad under the bus No Because I think a lot of He did the best he could With what he knew in times of... Yeah, absolutely All know that their dads did the best They could, but it doesn't change the fact

[00:53:23] That there's something inside going Alright, I've got different plans Is that the dad I wanted? And for those that might be listening Worried about that Like, you know, worried about how ingrained it might be What is the first step to breaking the cycle?

[00:53:38] Well, I think, yeah, read it If she takes you into study Yeah But there's been a shift, you know In the last 15 years When I was running seminars They were all women And about 10 years ago You know, when I started to talk about boys

[00:53:52] A couple of dads had turned up They'd obviously been dragged It didn't take them long But what I found was Because I can't do it without humour And I can't do it without sharing stories That once you've got a dad's heart You know, you've got transformation happening

[00:54:10] And then just over the years There'll be 10 or 12 dads walking together And now it's, you know 30 or 40% of my audiences are dads You know, and that just makes my... Look, I'm nearly crying right now Beautiful, it is At the end of the day We've got all these kids

[00:54:27] They're going to have these warmer, more connected dads You don't have to be perfect Remember they still bugger up It's okay and forget stuff But it's how we turn up with our heart Rather than our head Yeah Being exactly what our kids need us to be

[00:54:41] And that's connected, warm I love it so much And I think that is I think that's the heart of all your work Is helping make those connections And like you say, you know And if it didn't work today You've got, you can have a crack tomorrow

[00:54:57] And they have a really good laugh about the muck up moments Because I have a lot of them My boys remind me often What are some of your classics? One of the biggest is I left one of my boys at the swimming pool

[00:55:12] Now he was a state swimmer So I wasn't going to drown But we'd live 40Ks out of town I thought dad had him Dad thought I had him And others did And oh my god, every now and then He's still pissy about the fact he got left

[00:55:22] He got a whole bucket of chips from the canteen But I forgot book week once, right? Now that's like an Olympic sport, right? So I had to quickly whip out some, you know Pillar cases and cut holes and drew stuff on It really sucked

[00:55:37] And it was a double suck Because I'm a high school English teacher So I was supposed to encourage reading Yet my kids turned up With the worst outfit on the planet I can still remember slamming fingers in car doors And going, what did you do that for?

[00:55:51] Like, I did... I've done everything That every other parent has ever done But what we did, at the time I never shared it Because I was too ashamed And that was before the Insta world Where everyone's got perfect children That look wonderful

[00:56:05] And I think we laughed a lot more We weren't as judgmental The circle around us wasn't as judgmental You weren't shamed with some comment online About you having the child melting down In the supermarket or the kiddie Told someone where to go

[00:56:22] When you're picking them up at school Pick up I think it's so much harder For parents in a world that's very judgy I just think we don't participate That's what I'd like us to think That we offer the thumbs up And you've got this

[00:56:35] When those moments are happening Because that's exactly what parenting is It's a massive string of mistakes Mistakes, strung by some really great Moments of recovery And lots of really good quality Chocolate with fruit and nut in At night when they've gone to bed Because that's a health food

[00:56:54] Like whatever But there are days as a parent As a mum or a dad That we just hang them by our fingernails On the cliff face You know And I think if we can do it together That's great But if we can do it as a tribe

[00:57:08] And I think that's that The group of us who are either In a similar community space With similar age kids We've got to get back to watching out For each other's kids We've got to get back out to You know, I'll pick so and so up

[00:57:21] And I saw them And I went and checked And they are Yeah, it just checks me If you've forgotten something Let's just start caring For a little clusters of our kids So that we don't feel like We're in a silo You know, raising children on our own

[00:57:34] Without anyone who cares That's a really great point And again, back to the idea Of connection too Like that kids feel Kids feel more connected Loneliness is killing Lots of our people And I think it starts young Prioritise play please people Please prioritise play for children

[00:57:51] Because it's what they're supposed to be doing Like, I still can't believe I mean, one of the things you noticed The shift and you would notice it too Because your kids are that age I never used to see dads at playgrounds And on Sundays and Sundays

[00:58:03] It's nearly all dads Yes I love it It is great But I don't want to cheer them Because that means sounds like I think they needed to No, they don't They're doing a damn good job And I'm so stoked It's even really funny when someone says

[00:58:15] You are Maggie Dan, don't you? Yeah, I am Shit, I love your stuff That's so beautiful Isn't it beautiful? Well, there'll be many, many, many dads Thinking that very same thing right now Maggie, thank you so much Hamish, thank you The best Legend Thanks, mate Thank you, Maggie

[00:58:34] And thank you guys For making it through yet another episode And for all the episodes That people are listening to And sharing We get such beautiful feedback From men, from women, from people Even people that don't have kids That I'm always Just get a real warm glow

[00:58:51] From hearing The way people connect The things they take out of these conversations So thank you guys For your beautiful words And your feedback Thank you, Maggie Again, another one where I was furiously scribbling down notes Even though I was there the first time around

[00:59:04] To have the chat Even listening to it I reckon I would go back And do a whole other episode on You know, big feelings And you know, I'm Obviously in a relationship with a woman And I have a young daughter And the whole idea of venting

[00:59:21] To the safest person in the room And wearing that as a compliment That is a great game changer I don't know if that applies to you If you're listening to this But it's definitely something I'm taking away and thinking about Not often would I think

[00:59:34] Of following up a vent From my daughter with Thank you so much for choosing me As the safest person in the room But it helps, it's a good It's a good mind shift That was awesome Thank you Maggie Thank you for listening everybody We'll see you next time

[00:59:51] This episode of How Are The Dad's Dad Was produced by Tim Bartley And his good friend Hamish Blake Our theme is by The insanely clever and hilarious Tom Cardi, please do check him out Everywhere that you can check people out We recorded this on the lands of the

[01:00:06] Gadigal people of the Eora Nation Who have passed their parenting stories down For thousands of generations And we pay our respects If you want to drop us a line Head to our website howarethedad'sdad.com Thanks again for listening How are the dad's dad's