How Scott Pape Dads

[00:00:00] Hamish is a dad who loves to be a dad but he knows there's more to learn about being a dad So he made this show where he talks to all the dads so he can find out How Other Dads Dads, How Other Dads Dads

[00:00:19] Alrighty, today is a really interesting chat with the barefoot investor Scott Pape I don't think there's many people that would be unaware of Scott Pape I think there's sort of two camps, you know, you probably know someone that is like a devotee of his financial advice

[00:00:36] and I wasn't in that camp, I wouldn't say I was following his column or I hadn't read any of his books but I do have mates in common with Scott and the more I understood about his situation

[00:00:48] the more I was like, I'd be really interested to have him on How Other Dads Dad because money and how to teach kids financial literacy, our relationship is Added With Money That's a really interesting topic and of course it's going to be across a thousand families

[00:01:04] there'll be a thousand different answers but one thing I really like about Scott and I've got to say now having had him on the show, I am a devotee but one thing I really like about him is he walks the walk as well as talking the talk

[00:01:17] he's done what I think, you know, he's made life changes and he's made shifts and as you're about to hear there's a lot of theory, there's a lot of different ideas that get thrown around

[00:01:28] with A had a live and had a sort of structure the family unit but he's done it and he's living the experiment which I really, I really write I really enjoyed the conversation that I had with him

[00:01:40] we cover a vast range of things but you know, it's not just about money I think he's also got a lot of really astute takes on the development of kids and the environments we put him in and what sort of creates resilience

[00:01:55] and I'm really appreciative of his time he's got a ton of books out if you want to learn more about Scott Pape The Barefoot Kids is one that he gave us copies of that's, I've got to say

[00:02:07] I know this, I mean this is just a classic plug but congratulations Scott you get one anyway because like took it home and my little boy who was eight at the time he's just turned nine now, just like got straight into it

[00:02:20] and there's got to be worse things in the world than your kid getting like really into like how to start a little business and how to foster that kind of entrepreneurial and creative spirit so thank you Scott for that, what's fun out, how Scott Pape dads

[00:02:42] Scotty welcome, welcome to the couch Thank you for having me It is an honor Thank you Let's start with Dad's dad, see I know yours but let's start with how old are they, how many have you got?

[00:02:52] So I've got a nine year old boy, a seven year old boy, a five year old daughter and a two year old toddler who is, so it's Mayhem from the moment I get up to the moment I go to bed which is very early

[00:03:04] And you were just telling yourself there you live on like a 300 plus acre farm You live on a country property? Yes I do, so we live, I basically wanted my kids to grow up in the country

[00:03:17] I wanted them to grow up on a farm and so plenty of places to run around and all the rest of it And so yeah Is the experiment so far hitting the markers that you are hoping?

[00:03:28] It is awesome, so you know I spend a lot of my time on the farm I'm planting chestnut trees at the moment so the kids are helping me with that My daughter is getting lamb so she's going to be a sheep, a grazer and they've all got jobs

[00:03:45] How many head of lamb is she going to run? Only about ten, there's little baby dolls but they're so cute But you know my thing is as she gets older she's learning about earning money, financial literacy and sex education all in one

[00:03:57] I mean legitimately ten lambs is a pretty big responsibility for someone that's under ten years old And we've got chooks and all sorts of things so it's a really great, idyllic lifestyle for the kids Did you grow up in the country?

[00:04:10] I did, so I grew up in a little country town called Oyen which is at the middle of kind of nowhere It's right in the middle there Right, right So that was kind of my, I wanted my kids to have that

[00:04:22] We're still sort of an hour from Melbourne so we still get all the advantages But just having the kids grow up on the farms, pretty cool I mean I reckon I'm feeling that twinge of like, God damn that's what I should have done

[00:04:35] I reckon everyone listening, do you get that a lot from people? Do you see that look in people's eyes going? Because it's such a definitive call to go we really are doing this, we're not just talking about it Was there, was there hesitation doing that?

[00:04:49] It has its disadvantages In 2014 a bushfire came through and we lost absolutely everything So we'd just been married, we had a one year old and literally he had the, he's nappy We lost everything So you know we lost a lot of livestock

[00:05:09] So you know living on the land isn't, you know it can be tough And also the commute So we're constantly you know we're doing ballet, we're doing basketball, we're doing cricket, footy I'm constantly travelling So it does have its drawbacks You know I'm an Uber driver

[00:05:26] Yeah I'm basically an Uber driver for my kids A free one that gets a two star rating because you don't stop at Mackers enough Yeah and they, yeah so that's kind of my life So there are positive, the grass is greener sometimes

[00:05:37] Totally, I mean but I think it's, I think what's admirable about it is like you know in life we have these fantasies Or like those big things of like ah that'd be great to do one day but you know you did it Yes

[00:05:47] You committed, I think that's the tough thing Time does a funny thing where it moves a lot faster than we anticipate it's going to And so you know any hesitation is usually a recipe for it's never going to happen

[00:06:00] You know the thing about my job is I get to speak to literally thousands of people about their money About their life, about their regrets Like older people, younger people And I was sort of reflecting on it coming to talk to you today

[00:06:15] And I'm like a lot of the fathers that I speak to, the older fathers Say to me the one big regret for them is that they spent their kids early years working Like just working their guts out and they miss that

[00:06:30] In fact I had a shearer here at the farm a couple of weeks ago And he said to me I can't think about you know my kids being young Because it makes me cry because I was, I was shearing off shearing and I didn't see them grow up

[00:06:43] And so for me kind of what I've embraced is these are the good old days for me So I've got four kids in primary school or preschool You know parenting is the art of letting go

[00:06:55] And my kids are still, they still think I'm kind of cool sort of They still sometimes laugh at my jokes You know I'm good around sheep for my daughter

[00:07:07] You know so there are things that I'm, you know they're not shunning me like they wouldn't possibly in high school So for me this time here is like these are the good old days

[00:07:17] When I look back on my life it'll be these times with the kids that's really important So what I've done as a finance guy said you know what I'm going to front load this

[00:07:27] And I'm going to spend a lot of time on the farm, a lot of time with the kids now Because I know that you know in ten years time they're probably going to have their own life

[00:07:35] Their own stuff to do and they're not going to want to hang out with me as much Absolutely and look from you know everyone's circumstances are different But it's one of those things where I think they will hear that and they want to do it

[00:07:46] But it's a hard juggle, I mean if only there was a way that you could like delay You know take the salary now for a job and promise that you'll work in ten years I get it, right

[00:07:57] When my kids are teenagers I'll come work double shifts and I'll pay off what I took Yeah it's like the compression zone so you know it's marriage mortgage midgets Right you get the mortgage and obviously right now with interest rates going up

[00:08:11] People are under a lot of stress I get it However we did a lap of the map so in 2021 lockdown came we're like alright we're out of here Well that is what first sort of brought you to my attention as a dad Yeah right

[00:08:26] This is the first time we've met but I remember walking at that trip and loving it from afar Yeah And then I kind of followed it as you guys went for that trip Was it six months? About five months

[00:08:36] About five months in a van and you know like I'm a huge fan of a family adventure I love that just really keeps me up at night getting tingles like looking at maps

[00:08:44] And thinking about what you could do and big or small like what adventures you could have But that particular trip so five months in a van, six of you In terms of what you were hoping what it would be versus what it ended up being

[00:08:56] What were the lessons you learned along the way It was really challenging obviously like we would arrive at a campsite And we were like the clowns getting out of a mini-minor Because it's like you know there's six of us all coming out

[00:09:08] And you know just having six kids, oh sorry four kids and my wife and I'm the fifth kid In that confined space for that amount of time for the first three weeks It was like it was really tough

[00:09:21] Were there moments where you're like we've made a giant mistake? Not really because we would ring our friends who are locked down in Melbourne And they're like keep going just keep going Have you travelled more than five kilometres today? You're winning

[00:09:34] Yeah you just keep going but no for me it was a transformational trip Just the idea like I would get up with my daughter and we have this thing called a daddy-daughter date And we would go for half an hour, an hour

[00:09:46] We would pick flowers, I've never picked flowers in my life But we would just, I would just, I've never felt wealthier than that one time Of just being able to pour time into the kids And just spend time with them

[00:10:00] So we had this thing, my wife's a TV producer And we thought you know their mates back at school are actually doing something So we probably should you know keep the educational thing together Make it look loosely like we're teaching them something, yep

[00:10:11] So we had this thing called RV News So the kids actually got a little GoPro And every week they had to actually you know interview someone Tell their classmates back at school what they were doing Interesting points that sort of thing

[00:10:26] So it was good for them because my eldest was the anchor And he would throw to the Roving reporters and they would you know interview things and stuff It was an awesome time capsule for us to just document what we did

[00:10:39] I mean you are right there in the upper echelon of doing Rather than planning to do I mean I love the fact you already live on a farm Like you're already in a confined space kind of with your kids

[00:10:51] Like you just really love, you really don't you know really like just raising the bar Don't you just like how much more can we live on top of each other Yeah it's it can get a little bit cramped

[00:11:04] But again what we also worked at I remember we drove home right To this huge farm with this kind of huge house And we're like it was like suffocating Getting back in the house

[00:11:17] It was like for almost five months we had basically we'd lived out of a backpack Yeah did you I was gonna say did you find you needed less and less since you went on What were some of the things that got jettisoned along the way

[00:11:29] I mean you overpack like and we all just found that we were just in shorts and t-shirt The same shorts and t-shirt That's it like when I do go on these trips with the kids it was like

[00:11:38] I always pack for these fantasy encounters that I think I'm gonna have Like you know like like dry fit fishing pants that I bought and never used And then you're in literally the same pair of boardies like the entire time

[00:11:50] Yeah so that was so that was it was overwhelming to come back and go Look at all this stuff look at all this space And did it change your relationship with material goods too For about the first month and then we just reverted back into what it was

[00:12:05] But my kids all stayed in the one bedroom For the next year because they basically lived they slept above the the cabin For five months and now they all sleep in the same bedroom What did you do about fights because there would have been

[00:12:24] Because you know any kids they're in close proximity it erupt like was it hard to get space To cool off to to reset like you're kind of the you know You and your wife you're the managers of that environment Yes How do you manage that

[00:12:39] Airpods for me while I'm driving Airpods and lots of podcasts and like my wife didn't drive at all That was my job So you were allowed to go dad's going into your soundproof booth 35,000 Ks So I'm captain of transport you're on people management

[00:12:58] We've got we've got a toilet there we've got a shower We've got a first aid kit we're done But when we would camp and there would be fights We would go it forces you to go and walk

[00:13:07] And I think that is really quite great to actually be able to take a child And go for a walk There is something magical about walking Yeah It does it's pretty hard to stay angry on a walk Yes

[00:13:18] I reckon I don't know what it is but it's funny you mentioned that We did exactly the same thing the other night at home Yeah We just went for a lap of the block Yep shoulder to shoulder I think with boys

[00:13:26] Shoulder to shoulder is less intimidating than face to face Yeah If you're shoulder to shoulder and you're just talking You know that kind of worked but yeah for me I'm going to sound really biased But my kids genuinely get along pretty well

[00:13:40] And I think part of that is because of that trip where you really had to Because you're kind of living on top of each other It's probably one of the benefits of living in the farm Like one of the things I'm jealous about is

[00:13:53] You're in an environment where you obviously have to work together Like it's not so much that it's not so much the big one off moments Like you're in a day glue of learning how to operate together as a team

[00:14:03] That is kind of like at the heart of being a family It is Is team dynamics Yep I like it, I like it a lot Alright maybe we start with the three cornerstones of your parenting philosophy And then I want to get into some

[00:14:18] Actually do want to talk It's predictable is this or not But like I have financial questions Let's start with your three cornerstones of how you parent Well I mean I think the first one is these are the good old days So for me it is

[00:14:34] And I will just say that when we were travelling around Australia I felt very fortunate and I am to be able to take that time With my kids But I also found a lot of families that had just made it work

[00:14:47] You know they didn't have a large income Maybe he was a trader doing odd jobs as they moved around So is something that is achievable if you open your There's creative solutions are possible Yeah so the big one for me is these are the golden days

[00:15:08] These are the good old days right now Second one for me I read about the importance of family dinners So family dinners are more important There was a US study over 16 years that looked at all sorts of family life

[00:15:20] And the one predictor of academic achievement and overall wellbeing Was family dinners more so than sports, schools, family dinners So when our house burnt down rebuilt it We rebuilt it around the dinner table You can't see the TV from the dinner table That's great

[00:15:40] And family dinners for us are really important What are the rules? What do you use at dinner time like rules, etiquette Our two year old ruins everything Literally he is at the head of the table And when he doesn't like something it just gets thrown

[00:15:59] Generally speaking it is just making that ritual That we all sit down together and we talk Even since starting this podcast It's something that comes up a little bit on podcast And it's something I reckon I've done a lot more over the last year or two

[00:16:12] Timmy would you be the same? I think we're too dysfunctional not to all eat at the same time If we don't all eat at the same time we don't eat Too many, you have an industrial amount of people Same as Scott but yeah

[00:16:26] But family dinners are like even last night Everyone's stressed, when they're on the table Asked about everyone's day Highlight Buffalo, do you do highlight Buffalo? No what's that So you're high or low and you're Buffalo which is something Oh okay, I didn't know What's the Buffalo?

[00:16:40] It's something random Right so high point for low point and something random The random could be something to do with farts Or something that happened at school Something random I love highlight Buffalo, who invented that? I'm sure I stole it from somewhere Yeah yeah that's great

[00:16:57] At the moment in our family it's just like guys Because we've got two kids And we have a booth We did a similar thing when we renovated a house I was always wanting a round dinner table One side is a booth and the other side is chairs

[00:17:10] It's like just And maybe now, don't mean that was an error Because it's sort of like half play equipment Half a table Yeah yeah yeah Don't get up the top of the booth Standing on the top of the booth Like do not get under the table

[00:17:23] You can trap your kids in the booth though But that's what you think You call it okay, they go down They're escaping They're like sliding all over the booth So at the moment our battle is just like I even said at time We don't have phones

[00:17:37] Obviously like no phones that we didn't have But I'm like guys wait here Go in the kitchen I'm putting the timer on Just see please 10 minutes of sitting Like where we can see your heads That's what we're asking for So we are starting from scratch Yeah it's good

[00:17:53] In the black household It's good But I do But it is You gotta build that richer It's so easy Especially host school To post school And kids are still eating out of whack with parents One thing someone I've done is like we'll eat at 5.30 Yeah we ate at 5.30

[00:18:09] And we used to not We used to I reckon we're falling into the trap of going Get the kids to bed and then we'll have dinner And that can seem like the right idea Because like oh then we can have time together But we were missing

[00:18:23] You know you're missing that Really important chance to bond So at 5.30 we have dinner And I'm usually in bed by 8.30 9 o'clock So it's a downhill run But you're a farmer so you've got stuff to do You've got fixed to do on the farm That's light for a farmer

[00:18:37] Yeah it is For people I mean you work with a lot of families too Across the whole You know socioeconomic spectrum Times not a luxury that everybody has Obviously because there's intense work pressures And things like that And nor is we're really well aware

[00:18:57] That generally the people we have on this show Are people that are in a stable financial position Yes But obviously that's not the case For a lot of people out there What is Now you can't give one size fits all financial advice

[00:19:11] But what do you see in society Like the friction points against money Is real and it's a real pressure for so many people And you know things are absolutely not getting easier But are there any general strategies That even in tough times

[00:19:30] Can help navigate through something like that I mean I think if we bring it back to even Dating right The one thing that I know Is that you can't hide these things from your kids So there are a lot of parents that would say

[00:19:45] You know things are really tough We're really stressed at the moment Money's really tight We're just not going to tell the kids So we're gonna try and shelter them from it My thing is that you can't You can't shelter your kids from that They pick up on stuff

[00:19:58] They pick up on more than you think And if you try and hide them from it They'll make up their own ideas about what's going on So I think that there are You know when the house When our house burnt down That's become a key story with us

[00:20:14] The house burnt down And that was really terrible But the good thing that came out of that Is that we rebuilt And the people around us are really kind We've got really kind neighbours And people did lots of great things for us So there was meaning there

[00:20:30] And so what I would say is that There's a lot of parents right now Who are really stressed with interest rates And with the cost of living Have age-appropriate conversations with your kids But don't try and hide it from them This is a story that you can say

[00:20:43] You will get through it You will get through it But it's those lessons and those stories That make, that show your kids You practising resilience It's that with the first thing that I would say Second thing is So I'm a financial counsellor So basically when people are in

[00:21:00] Severe financial trouble They ring 1-800-007-007 Which is the National Debt Helpline And you get put through to someone like me And I help you with your debts I can talk to your banks I can try and get you back on your feet

[00:21:15] So if you're in really severe financial stress Generally low income earners Living below the poverty line You'll call that number And we can try and help out Help you get back on your feet For those people who've sort of fall into the middle

[00:21:27] The idea, the one thing that I would say Is that when people get stressed They tend to shut down So they stop talking to their partner They stop talking to their banks They kind of just hope that it will all go away

[00:21:41] Yeah, just not opening the mail and... Yeah, just avoiding the phone calls All that sort of stuff And that is the worst thing that you can do As long as you keep communicating And you've got a plan in place Most banks are going to be able

[00:21:53] They've got hardship programs that will help you through So that would be in the context But it is tough right now And that idea of not putting on a smiley face And acting like it's not happening That is probably my number one tip It's interesting, comes back to...

[00:22:09] I think that's great of us It comes back to something that a lot of people Will talk about on the show Which is... I reckon it's a cousin of this feeling Which is you've got to... Meeting kids at their level Is obviously when kids are emotional

[00:22:22] Being in that emotion with them And then this is the reverse Like as you say, in an age-appropriate way But it has the chance to build a stronger bond By going, we're in it together Because we're a family And these are the way that things are

[00:22:38] And we will succeed So there are tough times But if we all pull together We'll succeed And that is a really great lesson And I see, interestingly Not always, but most of the time Kids from single-parent households Lower income households Tend to be much better managing their money

[00:22:59] Than middle-class kids And the reason is, I think Is that they're having those money Conversations every day You can't buy those shoes We're not repairing those pants We can't afford to go to the footy You're having those trade-off conversations Every day Whereas middle-class parents Often and wealthy parents

[00:23:18] You just are going to the footy You just don't have those conversations So therefore they don't see The ramifications of things For the people that are just going to the footy Let's say middle-class people Because that's also people That might be listening to the show

[00:23:32] What would you suggest in that world Where there are certain types of purchases That seem non-discussed Like with the kids Things like that We're all going to the movies this weekend And you do it without mentioning the price Are there ways to...

[00:23:53] Do you think it's important to have those discussions Still to reiterate that stuff? Not really A few years back We went on a really good trip So we went to Fiji We're on an island And then a few weeks later We're back in Australia

[00:24:08] And we went to my mate's tree farm in Ballarat Where we totally froze our nuts off There was no toilets You got to shovel And I asked the kids a few months later What's your best tree farm? Tree farm It is that funny thing, isn't it?

[00:24:22] We bring our adult perception to it Because to us it's like Well, I've saved up a lot And this is a big deal To go to this Fiji thing And they really don't I mean it comes up a bit on the show Like with the best family holiday

[00:24:35] We had ever did recently Was a bike ride through New Zealand Which was staying at like One time we were staying above Dawn's garage Because we just happened to be in this town And that's the only place that you could say Like those are the greatest

[00:24:49] Those are the greatest memories So good odd days The ritual of dinner time Love that, what else? So I mean again It's a bit of a cliche But I am the barefoot investor But it is the one thing that I'm I've always been worried about as a dad

[00:25:02] Is that my kid I'm going to raise spoiled brats No one sets out to raise Spoiled little snowflakes It just happens, right? And I've again Part of my job is I've spoken to thousands of parents And thousands of kids And people about their money And so for me

[00:25:20] The focus is What I want for my kids I want them to be hard workers I want them to enjoy hard work Or at least tolerate hard work Or see the meaning in what Or understand the purpose of it Yep, and I want them to be kind

[00:25:34] And so I see This kind of sound a bit weird But I see money with kids It can be kind of creepy It can be kind of consumerist And weird and strange Let's get right into this Because the strange thing I have With my kids is like

[00:25:49] It's never not consumerist But then you sort of Like they're like I want to buy this I want to buy that Even when you're like I don't think you do Because you won't want that In a week Yeah But you got to let them do it

[00:26:01] That's the other thing too Then I sort of Stop myself and I go Well what else What other reference point Do they have here? Because in my head I'm like yeah So I turn around and go Hey dad I'd love to explore The power of compound interest

[00:26:15] Because he's eight It's like that's a really Adult sort of framework But then I just I don't have an answer to it I get frustrated by going Why do you guys just Want so much stuff all the time And we have A pocket money system

[00:26:29] Was a job list How is that going for you? Five dollars a week Really good question There's the jobs list Yep It gets ticked off That kind of works for my son Because he he likes structure and order and likes to kind of,

[00:26:42] and then the $5 goes into one of those accounts. Like so he's got like the debit card. Oh wow, okay. I think there's a bunch of them that do it. And then he can ask us what the balance is at. But what was happening was it was just

[00:26:53] auto $5 was going in. We get lazy on like, oh we haven't checked the jobs list. You go to check the account and you're like, like, 130 bucks. Like yes it earned that at all. But what he's actually, like do you know what we've told him? We're filming at royalties.

[00:27:10] Yeah. He's not doing anything. He's just clipping the ticket for five bucks a week. And we forgot about like we've been lax on the jobs. Yeah. So then we were like, then we do all the wrong things. We're like, you know, in a moment of like,

[00:27:22] we don't want to raise, we like panicked and we're like, when I raise a kid that's spoiled and entitled. So then so it's like, you didn't earn any of that at all going. Then I'm like, no we can't do that. Dead tax. It's like, then he's confused.

[00:27:35] And he's like, well why did all my money go? So I'd be in and so we just had a panic, put him to bed. But it's three o'clock in the afternoon. Go to bed, mom and dad need to talk. Had an emergency financial meeting that night.

[00:27:47] We're like, all right, like let's reshape this. We're like, we sort of took it back to when we'd last on the count. So it was messy but we were sort of like, this is intense. Anyway, we're doing it back to about $61

[00:27:58] and said, yeah, we had to relook at the box. We relooked at the book. That's sort of when the jobs list finished. So you're at 61 and here's the new deal, right? Tell me what you think about this.

[00:28:11] The new deal was he has to come to us on Fridays. Friday is payday. But you go come to us with the jobs list and we look at it. And if we sign off on it on a Friday, then we transfer the pay over.

[00:28:24] If you don't come on the Friday, you don't get paid. Like we shifted the, just cause we're lazy, we shifted the responsibility to Sunny. But now he does that, he gets paid. That's the system we're on at the moment. Cool. I haven't met a parent yet

[00:28:39] who hasn't tried to do pocket money. I've also, how long have you been doing it for? Pocket money? About a year. That's good. Cause most pocket money doesn't last a month or two. Okay, great. Because it's the parents trying to play the teacher. Yeah.

[00:28:56] And the kids are smarter than you and they've got more time than you. And there after a while, they're gonna be going to blow you. And I'm not gonna do these chores. Chores just sounds terrible. Yeah. So for the way that I look at it is

[00:29:12] how we do it at our house. We have these things called parent pleases, right? So the parent pleases are, they have to make their bed in the morning. They have to clear their dishes after dinner. And they have to put their smelly socks and jocks in the laundry.

[00:29:27] That's great. They don't get paid for that. That is, I don't charge you for my very average spaghetti bolognese. You don't charge me to do those basic things to keep the house in somewhat sort of, nice state if people drop by. This is what we're gonna do.

[00:29:44] They're called parent pleases. Then we have jobs that the kids do. And it's, we pay a dollar per year per week. So our five-year-old gets $5. Our seven-year-old gets $7 a week. And as they have a birthday, they take on harder jobs, right? So my five-year-old is collecting the eggs.

[00:30:06] And she's also a mini sheep farmer. But I'll get into that in a minute. Our nine-year-old does folding. Actually folds washing stuff that we actually would pay somebody else to do. That's getting into the realm where you're like, this is actually working for me.

[00:30:21] We've got unpacking the dishwasher, which is the first time in my life where I'm like, that's a benefit. That is a benefit. That's a benefit. And so what we do is we have three jars. So we don't do the cards.

[00:30:31] Cause what I see is kids are really visual creatures, right? So they, if you, we don't, I don't use cash at all, but for pocket money I do with my kids. Cause they hear and they see that money coming through after they've done the job.

[00:30:46] And we have three jars. So we have a splurge. And these are all designed to teach you behavior that I want. So the splurge is it's good to spend, right? It's good to work hard and you should be rewarded for that. You know, I have so many-

[00:31:01] This is your Friday night money. Yeah, I have so many parents that go, you would love Timmy. Timmy is he never spends any money. He is as tight. And I'm like, it's cute when Timmy's eight, but when Timmy's 28, he's going to be Nigel, no friends.

[00:31:13] He's going to be struggling for a date. Like this is just, you don't want to raise a tight ass. And so, so we've got the splurge. We've got the smile, which is about saving up for something that you want.

[00:31:24] We have, I have this thing called better than you. So what I try and encourage my kids, and I write about in my book, is to buy something secondhand. So you want something on a bike, you want to switch, whatever you want. Let's go on Gumtree.

[00:31:37] Let's go on Facebook marketplace and see how we can get it cheaper. And the reason it's better than you is obviously getting it, you know, 50 to 80%, 90% off what you would pay in the shops. But it's sustainable, better for the environment. Love that.

[00:31:51] So it's that idea that you can actually go, I really want a bike, but they're 400 bucks. Well, let's just go and see what you can buy one on, doing a bit of negotiation. Obviously the parents are involved in that, because you know... Of course, yep.

[00:32:05] But, you know, you can get... I'm not sending a nine-year-old around 300 bucks cash to start driving a bargain. But so they get to buy something and learn about that. And then the third one, and probably the most important one is give. So they are putting money each week.

[00:32:23] The rule is they get to choose where, what coins go into each of the jars. Now, I'm gonna be honest. Sometimes the give jar gets a small amount of money in there. She could use a bit of help the old give jar. But they get to choose.

[00:32:38] So, you know, if your kid is interested in animals, it might go to the RSPCA or a local dog shelter. Food bank is really good with kids. Because, you know, kids know what it's like to be hangry. Totally. You know? I know you've had...

[00:32:51] I'm a proud ambassador of Food Bank. Absolutely. And it's awesome. And so what it's doing is just giving your kids some sort of empathy and understanding that not everyone has things as good as you. So those three jars for me are about teaching the values.

[00:33:06] I don't really care about the money. Like people listening to this might go, well, I can't afford to pay my nine-year-old nine bucks. It doesn't really matter. You could pay them $5 a week or $3. It's just starting the habit. Like this is... It's starting the habit. Lifting very lightweight.

[00:33:20] You're not trying to breed bodybuilders yet. This is just like movement patterns. When I get some money, I like to spend it and spend it on my friends. I like to save up for something and buy wisely and see what I can save my money at.

[00:33:33] And you know, and the third one is I want to look after people around me. And those are the three building blocks for me that I think are really important. I think it's awesome. Because kids are visual creatures, like just wargaming a scenario here,

[00:33:47] got my five-year-old looking at the jar on the bench that's got her name on it for the smile, for the thing she's saving up for. And it's got like $11 in it. That's normally the time when she's like, all right, I'm ready to go to the toy shop.

[00:33:58] You know, like... It would seem like normal kid behaviour to go early, like to be going, well, I've got the money so I want to spend it rather than it being well, I want something so I'm gonna spend it. What do you do in that scenario?

[00:34:11] So a couple of things. What I've encouraged my kids, I've like, you know, let's be honest. I'm only gonna pay you so much money. There are only so many jobs here and we do them on a Sunday, right? We're not trying to do it.

[00:34:23] Like we do feeding dogs and cats and stuff during the week and picking up eggs and stuff. But what I say is like, you know, I'm tapped out after, you know, your $5. So in order to earn more money to get that goal, we're gonna do two things.

[00:34:36] So the first one is we're gonna see if we can get it second hand or better than you. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is you're gonna earn more money. So they have their own little business which is what I'm really passionate about.

[00:34:49] I wrote in the book, Barefoot Kids, I've got 35 kids from all around Australia. I've only just got the book this morning and I was just looking through it before and it's beautiful. Like there are these case studies of kids that have come up with their own business ideas,

[00:35:03] which again as a parent is like, that's what we want. It's awesome. To do like, I'm sure, you know, every parent of like a young kid that's into cars is the same thing like, you know, we're driving along and they're like,

[00:35:12] oh dad, that's a, you know, that's a Ferrari. Like that's what I'm gonna get. I'm like, man, get one. But how are you gonna get it? Like you need a good idea. Cause I promise you, the manual woman driving that car is an investment banker.

[00:35:25] They didn't, yeah, exactly. Like they didn't save up. They didn't save up because they unpacked lots of dishwashers. Like there's a good idea somewhere behind that or as my mom said, it's one thing to say that but it's another thing to actually put it

[00:35:38] into practice to go like teaching the baby steps of like what's a good business idea. So what I've done in that book is I got 35 kids. They're all different ages. They're from the city. They're from the country. There are kids with disabilities.

[00:35:51] There are kids from all walks of life, right? And because what I wanted to do is I wanted kids. This is a book that I wrote for kids which was incredibly tough writing for kids. Like my kids were my editors and they were brutal.

[00:36:04] Like I was, I wrote a really funny piece and my son who's nine said, I see what you're trying to do here dad. You're using humor as a device and it's really not working for you. You just need to get to the point. You're wasting the reader's time.

[00:36:18] There is no worse comedy criticism than someone stony face saying, I see what you're trying to do. So they're not getting the jokes, not an option. It's like, oh, okay. So you see what we try to do? It's terrible. So what I did was I actually flipped it

[00:36:31] and I got all these kids and there are only probably 20 things that a kid can do. And so they're in the book. So there's dog walking. There's making dog treats. There's a kid who's making money selling slime. There's putting the neighbors bins out. There is gardening.

[00:36:49] There's a kid who's got a lawn mowing business. But basically there's all these things that you can go, you just rip off one of these ideas. You know, can collecting. Yeah, none of these have been done to scale. They're not being done in our neighborhoods. That's it.

[00:37:01] So the idea is that, and what I have found, and I've got thousands of kids writing to me now, they are so passionate because it's them. It's their thing doing it. They've got a little stall at the end of their street but they've picked the veggies.

[00:37:15] They've created the sign. You know, it's, they are, it's this myth that kids don't wanna work. If you give kids the agency to do it within the bounds of appropriate parenting, that's where the learning comes. And as parents, that's where like the Instagram moments come. Like it's,

[00:37:33] there's not a lot of wins with parenting but when you see your kid actually at a stall doing things, but one of my middle child is quite shy, right? And we have this thing called C, the acronym, which is smile, eye contact, ask questions. So for him,

[00:37:52] when he's actually getting people coming to buy his, you know, cake stall and stuff, he's smiling, he's making eye contact, he's asked question and it's boosting his confidence. So it's not so much about the money for me. It's about actually, you know, the process of them set,

[00:38:07] you know, dreaming up an idea, creating a logo, getting the table ready, doing all that stuff. It's chipping away at that barrier to the outside world. You know, like there isn't kids are shy at restaurants or shy in public. And you know, first time you're like, no,

[00:38:20] no, you go and pay like at the cafe. Let's yeah, it's because the world is scary. Yeah. So starting a little business, I think is an amazing way to build trust in starting to engage with the outside world too. Yeah.

[00:38:34] And so the idea is then they earn some money, then they can go and put it into that small guy, the goal that they want. Okay, that's beautiful. Let me throw this one at you. This can this happen in our house a couple of weeks ago. Yeah.

[00:38:46] So this is another one where you go, oh, we're close here, but this isn't quite it. My little boy decided to make, he just learned how to fold like a couple of different styles of paper aeroplane. Right. Like, you know, him and a maid at school

[00:38:57] that got into one of the books from library and he came home and he was really pumped. Yeah. Different aeroplanes. He goes, I'm starting a shop. I'm saying a paper aeroplane shop. Yeah. And I'll fold different styles and he's drawn up a price guide.

[00:39:09] Now it was a rip off and like he was also like it was poorly like the marketing and the pricing structure was terrible. And this was this is my wife's feedback to me later. You know, she runs a skincare business. So she's like terrible price extraction. But

[00:39:28] and you know, like quite clearly how far did you let it go? Okay. So as a customer, I looked at that and I was like, I was both the customer and the father of the store owner. Like a basic basic plan was 50 cents. Yeah.

[00:39:43] And it wasn't too different for a stunt plane at five dollars. And then there was like a 10 pack of stunt planes for like $30. But basically I'm just like, mate, this is not paying this. Like the customer, I was like,

[00:39:54] do I teach him the lesson here to be like, sorry, mate, you've fold you put 10 seconds of labor into something that's essentially free. I can't pay five dollars for this or do I reward this behavior by engaging a little bit in this?

[00:40:07] And I think we did both give him five bucks. Also, he didn't actually get to the point where he was selling to the public. That's what I'm as you're telling me the story, that's one thing he about now. He's just come up with a creative way

[00:40:19] to gouge mum and dad. Yeah. There's no lesson in that, is there? No. No. No. In fact, he could be an investment banker because he's just like shuffled some paper around and got some money out of you. It's awesome. Because we're seeing they're going like,

[00:40:36] oh, this is good. This is good in business schools. When like something just isn't sitting right with me here. This isn't building business schools. This is just elaborate fleecing. And again, you know, so for me with the small business thing, it's OK to fail.

[00:40:49] You are going to fail with some of these things. I think and I'm sure this is in the book too, obviously a critical element of this is to get it out of the microcosm of the family finances. Of course. Because I'm going to spend my life,

[00:41:01] I think, until they're young adults just trying to beat materialism. Yeah. Just trying to like fight that wave because the whole world is advertising at them. Yep. And I fall for it myself. So it's really like definitely not. I can't I'm not practicing what I preach at all.

[00:41:16] Like I'm sitting in bed at night and going, why did I do that? Why? What have I bought? What have I bought? But I know like the whole world is advertising in our kids. And so they think they have to buy stuff all the time. Sure.

[00:41:27] And that's the society we live in in the worst anyway. But if with the pocket money system, there's that thing of like going, well now that I know I have $60, I'm just looking for something to buy. But if I didn't have $60,

[00:41:39] he wouldn't be looking for something to buy. So that's where I think for me, it's not so much the thing that he's buying. It's the saving up the goal get back to the behavior. More the activity of how you allocate the money to start with the muscle memory.

[00:41:54] And it's and it's thinking about, you know, kids are inherently narcissistic, you know, who am I going to spend this and this give money on and it could just be buying flowers for grain. It's just thinking about someone other than yourself.

[00:42:09] It's just these behaviors you want to do. For me, is the most important thing. And then the other thing is once they get their business, I encourage kids to start investing even if it is like $10. How do you do that? What's what's like, let's say an age appropriate.

[00:42:25] Let's say if your kids just come into high school, like what what's the investment options you give them? So the first thing is it is not about even so much compound interest. It's not so much that your kid is going to become a millionaire.

[00:42:40] What you are trying to do in the book, I've got a five year old girl who has got her own little business and she's just made a $20 investment into an index fund, which essentially buys all the big companies in Australia and overseas.

[00:42:53] And what I'm trying to do with that is to normalize the behavior. I'm an investor. That's what I do. So with my boys, what I do is I say to them, you own part of Mac is you own Nike. You've got your own shares in Netflix.

[00:43:09] This is interesting. I literally had this conversation this week with my boy who had just started noticing that there's big companies. So I was like, all right, well, this is actually how those big companies work in a very rudimentary way of trying to go well. Very basic. Yeah.

[00:43:24] And so for me, it is just like you just want to normalize that behavior so that you're not 40 or 50 sitting across from a financial advisor completely freaking out, not knowing what you're doing. If you embed that into this is part of what I do,

[00:43:40] this is within my ability when you're growing up. It just changes your entire life. So when I was in primary school, my dad sort of the dating moment was... This is your gold standard dating. This is my gold standard dating moment was dad said to me,

[00:43:56] I'm not going to pay you pocket money this week. I'm going to give you instead one share in BHP. And he's like, so you now own... He didn't. But... He didn't give it to you. It was a really lovely moment, but we worked out later on

[00:44:13] that he never actually transferred the shares. I love that you actually looked into it. You're chasing that still, chasing that BHP share. And it'd actually be worth a lot of money now because they've done a lot of stock splits. But anyway, but it was just that idea

[00:44:25] that it opened, it's like as dads, what we want to do is open the door and just show a bit of a possibility. And for me... That was big, that was that moment. That was that moment where I'm like, you know what? I can actually own a company,

[00:44:39] trades in fossil fuels, put that aside, that shares its profits with me and I'm just a kid. And that sparked an interest in me that changed my entire life. How old were you when that happened? I was still in primary school.

[00:44:51] So I was sort of, I was like seven or eight. Do you have moments where you sit down with your kids and are there sit down teaching moments you have with your kids or do these happen on the fly? Unfortunately, because I'm the barefoot investor,

[00:45:03] we're constantly talking about these things and doing it. But yeah, it is that just pointing out that if you own an index fund, so you own all the big companies, that you own part of those, a small sleuther of those companies.

[00:45:17] And it's just again, it's just normalizing it. Don't turn up to head office in a suit. Like they don't know you. Well, you know, swagger around, you know, Coles, if you don't get good service, hey, I'm an owner of this place.

[00:45:29] But yeah, and I guess the key thing for me is that for everyone listening, your kids aren't being taught this. Like I spent... That's a fascinating thing to me that this is the class I reckon everyone wishes they took when they were growing up.

[00:45:46] So after I wrote The Barefoot Investor, the number one question that people asked me was why am I only learning this now? Like why am I only learning this when I'm 35 or 45 or 55? Why didn't I learn this when I was at school?

[00:46:00] So I'm like, you know, that book gave me a platform. So I'm like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna try and get financial education in schools. So I spent a couple of years of my life, lots of money creating a not-for-profit,

[00:46:13] creating a program to try and get into schools. Cause I'm like, it's the one exam that every kid will be tested on every day of their life. And a passing or a failing grade colors your entire life. And it's not so much about financial literacy, it's life skills.

[00:46:31] And I failed miserably. I couldn't do it. I couldn't get it. You can't get it in. No. So it has to exist in book form? So yeah, basically I took all the lessons and wrote the kids book. But unfortunately... What was the roadblock?

[00:46:46] Like what was the reasons given to not getting it in? So I met with a lot of resistance with the education departments because I'm an outsider. They didn't see it as part of the curriculum. The curriculum is really tough to get into, which I completely understand.

[00:47:03] My view is this is stuff that kids are going to need to know. And we expect a lot of our kids. You know, we expect kids, they're getting targeted younger and younger. You know, they need to understand about after-pay. They need to understand about health insurance

[00:47:19] and superannuation and taxes. We don't teach any of that stuff. So for me, I think it really is up to parents to be teaching their kids these things. That's on us. It is on us. I mean, it is on us.

[00:47:34] And I think for a lot of us, it just feels massive. And it's also one of those things where you can easily convince yourself that it's a next-year discussion. Yes. And then time runs away with you. Yeah. But I think, you know, if you're focusing

[00:47:46] on not the money, the five dollars, but what am I going to do within those three jars? Who am I going to help? It's actually, yeah. It's the behavior link. It's the behaviors that you want because if you treat them, if you ingrain those habits

[00:47:58] when they're in primary school, hopefully high school is going to look out for itself. And the idea for me, it's not financial literacy. I hate that term. It's financial confidence, right? So if you are 16, if you're a 16-year-old girl and you say, or a boy and you say,

[00:48:12] I'm no good with numbers. I'm no good with maths. That means I'm no good with money. What happens is you have got every financial institution targeting that 16-year-old. They get afterpay and all those by now pay-lative firms, credit cards, car loans, they come to me at 21 and say,

[00:48:28] see, I'm no good with money and I can prove it. Whereas what I want to do is lift the financial confidence of kids so that they say, I am really good with money. I've been investing since I was five years old, you know?

[00:48:40] And so they've now got that confidence and it reshapes their entire life. So that is what I'm really passionate about. I feel like even just going back to your dadding, your three tenants, like time and money are pretty closely correlated.

[00:48:55] And I feel like a lot of your stuff is time-based, you know, is recognizing that now is the golden years and that to me loops back to going, recognizing like the finiteness of life. And some of you'd see in investing all the time,

[00:49:08] people that invest for the long term, like do well if they've got the discipline. Yep. That's kind of your job is playing with time. Yeah. And I guess you bring that into your kids' lives to start early, to go, this is the knowledge investment you make early

[00:49:23] pays much bigger dividends than the one you make. Yeah, and it's the selfishness as well is that I really, these are the years that I'm gonna look back on that are gonna be the highlights. So these trips and these times that I spend with them

[00:49:38] and that is a choice right now because I know that in 10 years time they're probably not gonna want me around that much. Right, I think it's such, I mean, I feel like this more than anything I'm leaving here going, we got a big shake up coming at home.

[00:49:51] We've got a big shake up going, Scott thank you so much mate. Awesome, thank you very much for having me. And thank you for the show for coming on. We've got that BHP share for you. Awesome. Really? No actually how much would that be?

[00:50:03] No way mate, no way. Thanks mate. Hey, Mitch is glad that he talked to another dad. Such a good chat, I really, yeah as I said at the top of the episode I really rate Scott for the work he does and his ability to line up

[00:50:21] not just the conceptual stuff but to live it with intent and to help people change their lives and to help people that are in tough situations get back on their feet. I think it absolutely a massive hats off for walking the walk. So really appreciate

[00:50:38] his wisdom, his ability to articulate those concepts so well. For those wondering, this was actually recorded a couple of months ago because Tim and I just take a bit of time to get our act together and get all these out but after that chat I went home

[00:50:53] and I was like right we're changing the pocket money system we're doing what it says in Scott's book we read about it, like how to instigate it I'll butcher it by trying to retell it here but I'm sure you can find it online or in his books about

[00:51:04] you know, you can find it on the internet in his books about you know, having parent pleases and then actual jobs that are age appropriate and that repeat and that go well and we've got the three jars we've got spend, save and give I gotta tell you

[00:51:18] we are three months maybe four months into that program it takes time but the kids get it they understand I now see in real life when it's like hey mum don't get us that thing you're like hey you guys have money

[00:51:33] you've saved it up, you've got it in your spend jar me to then go how you can buy it for yourself and them to be like man I really want it I'm like great there's just just I feel like you know you're taking baby steps

[00:51:44] in the right direction to have those trade off conversations that he talked about so that's just an update for Scott and Casey who's listening back to this episode but we're doing the jars they're going well there's some real pride about saving and starting to hunt for

[00:51:59] second hand items that we're saving up for so really appreciate that mate thank you for listening guys I hope you get something out of this too I think you know again I think Scott does really recognise as the different situation that everybody's in

[00:52:12] but I really do think there was something in there for the vast majority of people and acknowledging the different situations we're all in I really appreciate his time thanks for listening How are the dads dad? How are the dads dad? This episode of How Are the Dads Dad

[00:52:30] was produced by Tim Bartley and his good friend Hamish Blake Our theme music is of course the star of the show apart from the guests and by the incredibly funny and clever Tom Cardi we recorded this on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation

[00:52:44] who have passed their parenting stories down for thousands of generations and we pay our respects if you want to drop us a line head to our website howardthedad.com thanks again for listening Hamish is a dad who just spoke with a dad and it blew his tiny mind

[00:52:57] about what he learns so he'll keep on the dads and force them to talk to him So hey, can you find out how are the dads dad?