Wild Rule Breaking Season 3 Finale with Dr Billy Garvey

[00:00:00] Before we end the season of How Other Dads Dad for Season 3, let's end with a final thanks to Hertz. Thanks for their support. We got to go on a bunch of adventures this season, so thank you to Hertz for helping us out, covering those costs, allowing the podcasts and the adventures to flourish. And if you would like to go on your own adventure, or if you'd even like to hire a car as a soundproof vessel to do a podcast from, why not use Hertz?

[00:00:27] Hertz.com.au forward slash H-O-D-D is how you get 25% off the base rate. Terms and conditions do apply that, but even if you don't want to hire a mobile podcast studio, they can help you out whenever you next need one for a holiday. So thank you Hertz, and thanks to everyone for listening to the season thus far. Let's get into the last one.

[00:01:05] All right, welcome to our very, very special rule breaking final episode of the season. And it is rule breaking because way back when the genesis of How Other Dads Dad was like, look, let's not have experts on to talk about this stuff. It would be great to talk to people who are just trying to figure it out. I think there's something beautiful in trying to do that.

[00:01:31] And, you know, in the process of these conversations, though, we often touch on stuff that does have a grounding in something that is, you know, obviously been studied or has been practiced in a clinical sense. So in comes Dr. Billy Garvey. If you're regular, if you've listened to the first two seasons of the show, you know what this episode is all about. Dr. Billy, he's a developmental pediatrician. He's worked with kids for over 20 years.

[00:01:59] Unfortunately, due to just the general state of mental health and the healthcare system, his waiting list is roughly about 20 years. So it's one of those ones where, you know, he reached out to us, and I'm lucky enough to have known Billy for a long time, and he's a mate to just say, look, I'd love to be able to jump on and talk to your audience and help people with a lot of the generalized stuff that I would tell people when they come into clinic anyway.

[00:02:25] So I think this is just a beautiful way to get some of the information that Dr. Billy has and would tell you if you're in his rooms to get some of that more generalized stuff out there.

[00:02:39] Of course, you know, then acknowledging that every kid is their own particular situation.

[00:02:45] But it's pretty awesome to get to have Dr. Billy come on.

[00:02:49] I would like to mention, too, special plug for his book, which I was lucky enough to get an advanced copy of, and I think I might even be on the cover.

[00:02:55] But it's 10 things I wish you knew about your child's mental health.

[00:02:58] It's just such a useful resource.

[00:03:02] Like, I just don't think you can pick up a page and not land on something where you're like, oh, my God.

[00:03:07] Yeah, I could apply that today.

[00:03:09] So huge thanks to him for coming on.

[00:03:13] The way this episode works is we'll just play snippets from throughout the season, and then we get to hear Billy's thoughts on it afterwards.

[00:03:19] It's always a heavily re-listened to episode.

[00:03:23] So get your pencils ready and please enjoy Dr. Billy's take on How Everyone Dads.

[00:03:36] Billy, welcome.

[00:03:38] This is like our end of year.

[00:03:39] My favorite end of year tradition.

[00:03:40] Welcome to the couch.

[00:03:42] Thank you.

[00:03:42] Yeah, me too.

[00:03:43] I love it.

[00:03:43] So good.

[00:03:44] All right.

[00:03:44] Third time around.

[00:03:45] I would assume most people know the drill here.

[00:03:48] What I love about this, and I've got to say thank you, too, because it's a huge service that I think you do to our audience who's, you know, you have your own podcast.

[00:03:57] You have pop culture parenting, but yet you put the effort into then coming onto this podcast, listening to every episode, and then picking your favorite bits.

[00:04:05] So first of all, thank you.

[00:04:06] Like, you know, we're really lucky.

[00:04:08] Well, I mean, I really appreciate, you know, anything I get to do with you and Tim, because I think it's really important that we counter how much the community is struggling in guiding their kids.

[00:04:17] And you give me the opportunity to share what we do in clinic more broadly, which is really beautiful.

[00:04:22] Thank you, mate.

[00:04:23] Thank you.

[00:04:23] Well, your first clip is from Brett McKenzie from earlier this year.

[00:04:28] Super fun episode.

[00:04:30] Let's listen to the clip first.

[00:04:32] I believe it's about when Brett was talking about his daughter finding a very, very niche sport, underwater hockey, and then, you know, the family now being into underwater hockey.

[00:04:44] Yeah, yeah.

[00:04:45] And you'll hear in it, he's like quite surprised and curious, which is really beautiful as well.

[00:04:50] But we'll talk about why this is really important for all of our kids.

[00:04:52] Okay.

[00:04:56] Another interpretation of community is finding your people, right?

[00:05:00] For you, it was like theater and comedy and performing and pretty similar on my side of the fence.

[00:05:04] But you feel it as a kid, like what it unlocks in you once you've found your people.

[00:05:10] Is that an important – does that play a role in your mind where you go, okay, I want to do what I can to, you know, nurture the kids to find their people if and when that happens?

[00:05:20] Yeah, I guess the – I'm always looking out for that thing that they show interest in.

[00:05:26] One thing that's quite funny, we – my daughter, we – I'm not sure, but I think this is how this happened.

[00:05:33] She's become really interested in underwater hockey.

[00:05:37] This is not something you'd expect someone to become interested.

[00:05:40] It's not like, oh, she's been talking about underwater hockey since she was four.

[00:05:42] The hardest part is hearing about it in the first place.

[00:05:44] Yeah.

[00:05:44] Yeah, it's a very niche sport.

[00:05:47] But then this comes – this is what I'm talking about, spending time with them.

[00:05:51] We go down to a local swimming pool and they played a game where they could hold their breath and just sort of float down to the bottom of the pool, as you do.

[00:05:59] But my daughter was like, oh, she was really good at touching the bottom of this really deep pool.

[00:06:03] So she – you know, we went home that night.

[00:06:05] She was like, yeah, I'm actually really good at diving.

[00:06:07] I'm really good at diving.

[00:06:08] You know, I was like, you know, just holding my breath and sinking or whatever that is.

[00:06:11] And I was like, yeah, that's a skill you've got.

[00:06:13] So there was this one little tiny little nugget.

[00:06:16] I was actually quite good at that, you know.

[00:06:17] And then she was like looking at those free diving things, you know.

[00:06:20] Wow.

[00:06:20] I might become a free diver.

[00:06:22] I was like, okay.

[00:06:23] I was like, this doesn't sound like a good future.

[00:06:25] But okay, okay, if that's what you're into.

[00:06:27] But fascinating.

[00:06:28] But isn't that – there's that like glimmer of –

[00:06:30] I reckon it was that little moment.

[00:06:32] Glimmer of mastery of something.

[00:06:34] Yeah.

[00:06:34] So then she joins this team, this game where you have to hold your breath and play on the bottom of the pool.

[00:06:39] She's really good at it.

[00:06:41] Awesome.

[00:06:42] Yeah, it's beautiful, isn't it?

[00:06:44] Because it's actually this really important part about how we are proactive in supporting the mental health of our kids around

[00:06:50] self-esteem.

[00:06:51] And, you know, you can hear that he's so proud but she is as well.

[00:06:55] And that kind of self-esteem built in that mastery instead of performance.

[00:07:00] So the performance is like the gold medal.

[00:07:03] Mastery is something I put effort into and I get good at.

[00:07:06] And other people celebrate that part about me.

[00:07:08] Helps you build secure self-esteem.

[00:07:10] Remembering we're going for secure, not high.

[00:07:12] Yeah, so interesting.

[00:07:14] And it makes me think of like, okay, you've got the standard sports.

[00:07:17] Like you've got your Auskick and your little aths and things like that.

[00:07:20] And they're awesome.

[00:07:21] And I'm really a big advocate of – I love the idea of it for when it works and it clicks in the kid.

[00:07:27] But then I also have had experience where it's just not the kid's thing and staying nimble to that idea of going –

[00:07:36] especially when the kids are, let's say, you know, five to ten in that bracket where they're like, okay, this isn't quite your thing.

[00:07:42] You don't seem to love it.

[00:07:43] And we'll try and find that next thing.

[00:07:46] And so I think that's why it really resonated with Brett's story too because I was like, we're just dreaming of our kids getting pulled into something rather than us feeling like we have to push them into something.

[00:07:57] Yeah, and I think it is a mistake that some of us fall into as well-intended parents as we set up who we want our kid to be.

[00:08:04] And we're like, you're going to be the footy gun because I wish I was the footy gun or I was the footy gun.

[00:08:08] I mean, I struggle with trying to find that balance.

[00:08:10] Is it about – is what you're saying about like finding that self-esteem so that competency.

[00:08:14] It's just about celebrating the steps as they get better rather than any kind of performance.

[00:08:21] Yeah, that's the difference in mastery.

[00:08:23] And mastery is what we should be aiming for an intrinsic value.

[00:08:26] Like I feel good about myself because of this.

[00:08:28] And it's interesting because in clinic I ask every single kid two questions that I meet.

[00:08:32] What do you like and what are you good at?

[00:08:35] But it's important that they decide what they're good at because as parents we want to jump in and say this, this, this and this.

[00:08:40] And a lot of kids who have fragile or low self-esteem don't have an answer to either of those or the second one.

[00:08:47] And, you know, I think about this with my gorgeous daughter who's like really into Spider-Man and I followed her going there.

[00:08:54] I didn't lead her there.

[00:08:55] It gives me this opportunity to help her feel confident and secure self-esteem like athletically and she's being Spider-Man and all that stuff.

[00:09:01] But also then I can put like pro-social skills like compassion and empathy and sharing from that perspective and that narrative.

[00:09:08] And I think it's an important thing to shift away from.

[00:09:11] I want you to be really good athletically.

[00:09:12] I want you to be really good academically because a lot of kids will never experience success in that.

[00:09:17] Can I ask – that is really interesting.

[00:09:20] And I reckon – I don't reckon I've actually sat down and asked my kids that.

[00:09:24] What do you like and what are you good at?

[00:09:25] I could have a hunch but I think that proves the point that we actually haven't had that conversation.

[00:09:28] So earmark to do that after school this afternoon.

[00:09:33] Quick tangent, do you reckon that's the appeal of video games to younger kids because it's something, it's a realm they can feel mastery in?

[00:09:43] Yeah, definitely.

[00:09:44] And I have no affiliation with this group.

[00:09:46] There's an amazing guy called Andrew who has a company called Game Aware which helps kids that are kind of absorbed in video games.

[00:09:51] And one of the things that he recognises the reason they go into it is that mastery because often it's lacking in other parts of their life.

[00:09:57] And so they lean into it.

[00:09:59] You know, it can also be because it's a soothing tool and stuff like that.

[00:10:01] And that's why it's a bit better at looking about what's going on for the kid instead of saying, get off that bloody video game.

[00:10:07] Yeah.

[00:10:07] And thinking about what need are they needing to have met and how can we think about ways that complement that need outside of video games that involve other people.

[00:10:15] I think that's a very, very good call.

[00:10:19] Definite food for thought for Haim there.

[00:10:22] All right, the next little bit was Whipper.

[00:10:25] But what is it about Whip's episode that stood out to you?

[00:10:28] There's lots to love about him.

[00:10:30] And, yeah, I thought it was beautiful because we, you know, you know him very well.

[00:10:35] I know him a little bit.

[00:10:36] And he's a really sensitive guy.

[00:10:37] And I think you're going to hear this beautiful reflection that he has about like kind of going in and expecting his son to be able to just instantly respond to kind of him saying, do this better.

[00:10:49] And the vulnerability in that and how he catches himself and changes.

[00:10:53] And we'll talk about the evidence around that maybe once you listen to it.

[00:10:56] Okay.

[00:10:58] It's a tricky one, isn't it?

[00:10:59] Because we don't want to become authoritarian.

[00:11:03] Like we don't want to be a policeman.

[00:11:06] We know that doesn't.

[00:11:07] That's not.

[00:11:08] We can feel in our hearts that we know it's like to be a kid and have that feeling and we don't want that feeling.

[00:11:13] But we still want to remain.

[00:11:14] But there's still a healthy, a huge healthy aspect to having authority.

[00:11:21] Like to go, to be the grown up to the kid.

[00:11:25] To go, I'm the leader.

[00:11:26] Hey guys, we're doing it like this.

[00:11:27] I've got your best interests at heart.

[00:11:29] And we're doing it this way.

[00:11:30] And that, do you feel like that's more of the way that modern boundaries are set?

[00:11:35] You're always going to get to that point when you've got three kids.

[00:11:37] At some stage, you're going to have to go, no.

[00:11:40] That's just if we're going to get to that point, then we will get there.

[00:11:42] But I said something to Ted the other day.

[00:11:44] It was something so small.

[00:11:46] Yeah.

[00:11:46] But he burst into tears.

[00:11:48] It's like holding his pencil wrong or something, doing his homework.

[00:11:52] And I was like, man, I've told you over and over again, that is not how you hold your pencil.

[00:11:56] But that must have cut through to him.

[00:11:59] I mean, he might have been tired or whatever.

[00:12:01] But for some reason, in that moment, that was the authority coming down and saying,

[00:12:07] enough's enough of holding your pencil like that, if that's what the example was.

[00:12:11] So then I took that on board of going, okay, well, now I know the impact that I'm having

[00:12:16] if I build it to that point.

[00:12:18] I need to be aware of that.

[00:12:19] I would say we always have more impact than we think.

[00:12:22] Yeah.

[00:12:23] Couldn't agree more.

[00:12:25] Because I think back to some of the stuff that was said to me as a kid by my dad, my mom,

[00:12:31] people in authority, that they would have definitely forgotten.

[00:12:33] Yep.

[00:12:34] And thought it was just, oh, well, that was just a day when we were tense.

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:37] And it sticks with you for life.

[00:12:38] I think, Mike, along to sympathize, my common screw up on a daily basis is making the mistake

[00:12:48] of interpreting something that's not happening.

[00:12:52] Let's say it's taking a plate over to the sink.

[00:12:56] Some small action that I interpret as not trying and then realizing in hindsight with how much

[00:13:03] it's upset or hurt the kids that they are trying.

[00:13:06] Yeah.

[00:13:06] I reckon I make that mistake all the time.

[00:13:09] Yeah.

[00:13:09] So it's beautiful.

[00:13:10] And it shows how amazing you are because you use a scientific research term in it as the

[00:13:16] authoritarian.

[00:13:17] And we have decades of evidence about parenting styles that informs us.

[00:13:22] And what Whipper is describing, and you are as well, is this shift away from that.

[00:13:27] And often we were raised by authoritarian parents who were like, Judge Dredd, because I said so

[00:13:33] as a classic authoritarian.

[00:13:34] I'm not going to explain it to you.

[00:13:36] I'm just going to say, because I said so, because I'm your dad.

[00:13:38] I'm the law.

[00:13:39] Yeah.

[00:13:39] I'm the law.

[00:13:40] I'm the law.

[00:13:41] Yeah.

[00:13:41] That's the line.

[00:13:42] Yeah.

[00:13:43] And it's interesting because if we think about parenting style, there's two components.

[00:13:47] So there's kind of demand, which is I don't ask anything of you.

[00:13:50] I ask lots of you.

[00:13:51] And there's warmth, which is I'm cold and I'm warm.

[00:13:53] And what that does is guides us to the four different parenting styles.

[00:13:57] Judge Dredd is one of them.

[00:13:58] He has low warmth, but high demand.

[00:14:00] Yeah, right.

[00:14:01] The problem with that is even when it works and your kid does it, what they really struggle

[00:14:05] with is fragility and their self-esteem.

[00:14:07] And they really need guidance and struggle to have their own opinions and processes and

[00:14:11] problem solving.

[00:14:11] So we know that the parents that raise their kids like that, those kids often then struggle

[00:14:15] when they become adults and go, hang on, I'm used to being told what to do by an authority

[00:14:19] figure or they'll clash against authority figures.

[00:14:22] And I did that.

[00:14:23] If we think about low demand and low warmth, that's neglectful parents.

[00:14:27] That's, I don't really care about you and I don't expect much of you.

[00:14:30] Yeah.

[00:14:30] And every parent loves their kids.

[00:14:33] I meet a lot of parents who might be in that bracket because of their own multi-generational

[00:14:37] trauma and their own mental illness.

[00:14:39] The third type is what we think about warmth and low demand.

[00:14:43] And that's for, you know, that's Regina's mum and me and girls, you know, I'm the cool

[00:14:48] mum.

[00:14:48] They just want to be liked by the child, but they don't expect anything of them.

[00:14:52] Those kids really struggle when they come up against authority figures such as educators

[00:14:57] and go, I've always got away with whatever I want.

[00:14:59] How dare you kind of have any expectations of me because no one else has before.

[00:15:03] Totally can't handle a stretch.

[00:15:05] Yeah, exactly.

[00:15:06] And then there's this beautiful fourth type that we're aiming for, which is high warmth and

[00:15:11] high demand.

[00:15:12] And that's authoritative parenting.

[00:15:14] Yeah.

[00:15:14] And that means I am the person who's leading us on this, but you have a voice.

[00:15:19] I want you to understand why.

[00:15:21] I want you to have a say in what matters to us as our family and our values.

[00:15:24] And we'll actually go through this together and we will adapt.

[00:15:28] And that's what you see Whipper doing is he realizes because he's just come in with demand,

[00:15:34] he struggled, you know?

[00:15:36] And then you're the same.

[00:15:37] You're like, I think they're not trying, but actually kids are always trying.

[00:15:42] If they're not actually trying because they're not going to school or they're not listening

[00:15:45] to you as a parent, there's always a reason.

[00:15:47] It's not.

[00:15:47] It's true that I reckon my not, even just listening back to that, I'm like, what I would

[00:15:52] be confusing it with in the moment is just coming in with high demand and probably pretty

[00:15:56] not a lot of warmth.

[00:15:58] And then when they're like not doing it, that's just me being frustrated that high demand hasn't

[00:16:04] been met.

[00:16:05] So my brain goes to, well, you're not trying because I suddenly expect you to care about

[00:16:12] the time schedule that we're trying to keep as much as I do.

[00:16:15] And you don't because you're a kid.

[00:16:16] Exactly.

[00:16:17] And warmth always comes first because what we think about is we go, well, no, you're

[00:16:21] really struggling and failing at something.

[00:16:23] I need to put more demand and more pressure and it always sends kids the other way.

[00:16:27] And so coming in with warmth and the beautiful thing about that approach is it's relevant

[00:16:30] for the three-year-old that doesn't want to get in the car and you've got to drop down

[00:16:34] and connect to you.

[00:16:35] And it's relevant for the suicidal or self-harming teenager who's really struggling in that moment

[00:16:39] and can't fathom living for another minute.

[00:16:42] You start with warmth and you come in and connect with them.

[00:16:45] And the demand is so far away because all you want them to know is that you unconditionally

[00:16:49] love and support them.

[00:16:50] Yeah.

[00:16:51] I mean, I can think of several examples in the last two weeks where I've definitely dug

[00:16:57] in on the – and your brain's going, what are you digging in for here?

[00:17:01] Like, and I've dug in on the demand side and the warmth evaporates.

[00:17:08] And of course, like it takes an hour to then unravel it and come back to warmth and the

[00:17:15] demand is forgotten.

[00:17:17] So – and I think the answer to that, and it sounds like the answer to so many in a nutshell

[00:17:21] is you're just not leading with warmth.

[00:17:24] Yeah.

[00:17:24] As much as you would love to get results right now, it just doesn't come from demand.

[00:17:29] Yeah.

[00:17:30] And when they're struggling, they have a need, they need mesh.

[00:17:32] And if you can drop down, connect with them and try and figure out that need, then it might

[00:17:36] take you 30 seconds or two minutes longer to get in the car, but you'll do it successfully.

[00:17:40] And then in the future, you'll actually build the capacity to do that in partnership even

[00:17:44] more effectively.

[00:17:45] Yeah.

[00:17:46] And kids learn that it's actually about the relationship.

[00:17:48] It's not about how quick you get in the car.

[00:17:50] Yeah.

[00:17:51] Yeah.

[00:17:52] Quick, quick.

[00:17:52] If something's fear-based for a kid, like let's say like looking at my little girl,

[00:17:56] for example, with Ru, you know, like riding a bike has been a big thing for her and we've

[00:18:00] been incrementally progressing.

[00:18:03] We go on family bike rides as a family, but she's always been on the back of my bike.

[00:18:06] This next year, like in a month or so time, we've got our first family bike ride where

[00:18:10] she's on her own bike.

[00:18:10] So there is a need to skill her up to being competent on her own bike.

[00:18:17] Like it's not something that she naturally wants to do.

[00:18:20] Now I can't say to her, listen, mate, the holidays books, like we're going to lose $3,000

[00:18:25] here because like we're traveling, we're traveling to go on this bike ride.

[00:18:28] So that's not going to work for her, but that is a very real need in the back of my mind

[00:18:34] that we need to get to this level.

[00:18:36] You know, there's all these things where it's fear-based that's keeping her from it and it's

[00:18:39] building up a resistance.

[00:18:40] And I know the more I ask her, come on, honey, like we've got to like, let's, I know that

[00:18:44] just once you get on, you start pedaling, you'll love it.

[00:18:46] That builds up like a real resistance to her.

[00:18:49] What's your advice in that situation?

[00:18:51] I'm just going to go flat out advice now.

[00:18:52] No, it's beautiful.

[00:18:53] Yeah, yeah.

[00:18:53] And it's actually interesting because the bike analogy is a beautiful one because we know

[00:18:57] that like when we're teaching kids how to ride a bike, we give them something they can

[00:19:01] succeed at, whether it's training wheels, I'm holding you, whatever.

[00:19:04] And then heaps of success, they fall over, we don't come down on them.

[00:19:08] We think you need more support.

[00:19:10] Whenever kids are anxious, we should make sure we remove pressure.

[00:19:13] And demand because we never, the old school approach of like just push past it and grit

[00:19:18] your teeth doesn't actually work.

[00:19:20] And even the kids that whether they do get on the bike, they do walk into the schoolyard,

[00:19:24] they do face their fears.

[00:19:26] They haven't actually built the skillset to do that because they're so dysregulated that

[00:19:31] they're actually just gritting their teeth, humming with anxiety.

[00:19:34] They get home from school that day and explode.

[00:19:36] More traumatic than helpful.

[00:19:38] It can be, yeah.

[00:19:39] And trying to figure out if she's dysregulated or not in those moments is important.

[00:19:42] When she's dysregulated, you just help her find calm.

[00:19:45] And I think we've spoken on a previous season about how you do that.

[00:19:49] But the evidence around even the most used and research-based approach, which is not the

[00:19:55] right one for everyone, but CBT can help us in answering that question because it has five

[00:19:59] steps.

[00:19:59] The first is psychoeducation, understanding she's having anxiety and she's stressed and

[00:20:04] she's getting flooded and she's losing access to her higher brain functions like reasoning

[00:20:08] or listening to dad.

[00:20:09] The second bit is symptom control.

[00:20:11] How do you handle that?

[00:20:12] How are you aware of it?

[00:20:13] And all that stuff.

[00:20:14] The third is cognitive restructuring, which is what else might happen.

[00:20:18] You can't go anywhere near that.

[00:20:19] If she's like, I'm going to fall over, I'm going to stuff it up or whatever.

[00:20:22] And you go, oh, no, you won't.

[00:20:24] You'll do really well at it.

[00:20:25] And you actually haven't helped her learn that.

[00:20:28] The fourth step is exposure, gentle exposure to a steeper hill, being more independent on the

[00:20:33] bike, whatever, and watching her.

[00:20:34] And the fifth is relapse prevention.

[00:20:36] Relapse prevention is really important because the biggest predictor of kind of a future mental

[00:20:41] health is having it previously, a mental illness like anxiety.

[00:20:44] And so often kids who struggle with stuff like this have a sensitive temperament that is set

[00:20:49] in stone.

[00:20:49] You cannot change your temperament.

[00:20:51] I've got a sensitive temperament.

[00:20:52] I love meeting those kids that will always, and I will always have a sensitive temperament.

[00:20:55] But it's thinking about like, how do we actually support this and build your skillset and

[00:20:59] connect knowing you've got a lower threshold for dysregulating and come in and teach you

[00:21:04] this skill and connect with you and thinking about, this is the goal we're trying to reach

[00:21:08] as a family.

[00:21:08] It's not you need to get to this point by the holiday.

[00:21:11] It's we need to get here so that we get the most out of it.

[00:21:14] And I'll go at your pace and support you in whatever way you need to be, as opposed to,

[00:21:19] come on, I've talked to you three times about this now.

[00:21:21] You should be over it.

[00:21:22] Yeah.

[00:21:22] It's hard though, because we put pressure on ourselves as well.

[00:21:25] Okay.

[00:21:25] Well, thank you for everyone indulging, but I think there's a lot in that.

[00:21:29] It's just about constantly letting go of, you just have to let them write the script.

[00:21:35] Like just constantly letting go of my script of like, this is what today was going to

[00:21:40] be.

[00:21:41] This was the success we were going to have.

[00:21:43] Yeah.

[00:21:43] Well, your success will be defined by how well you connected, not whether she rode the

[00:21:48] bike or not.

[00:21:49] She might not even sit back on the bike.

[00:21:51] We've had a few days like that.

[00:21:52] Yeah, totally.

[00:21:53] But you were probably unconditionally supportive of it, weren't you?

[00:21:56] You didn't go, well, because you didn't, I'm actually, I'm going to withdraw from your

[00:22:00] bit.

[00:22:00] You actually lean in.

[00:22:02] Kids who are struggling, it is to lean into them, not kind of withdraw.

[00:22:05] Okay.

[00:22:05] This is great.

[00:22:06] I appreciate that.

[00:22:07] Is the private session over?

[00:22:09] Yeah.

[00:22:09] Thanks, Tim.

[00:22:10] Okay.

[00:22:10] We'll go on.

[00:22:11] Thanks everyone for sitting through that.

[00:22:12] But I think there's a, you know, for anyone who's got a kid in the same realm, there's

[00:22:16] applicable stuff.

[00:22:16] Um, Nathan Fave, uh, what, what was it that stuck out, um, to you from New Zealand's multi

[00:22:25] world champion adventure racing captain?

[00:22:27] Well, it's interesting because you talk about him and how much composure he has and you talk

[00:22:32] about it in this clip as well.

[00:22:33] And it is, I'm not like that.

[00:22:35] I don't know about you.

[00:22:36] I'm not like that at all.

[00:22:37] And I think that's why I'm so interested in, like, and I think I said in this episode,

[00:22:40] like I've dabbled in this kind of, um, event, this kind of sport, like as a total, like the

[00:22:48] lowest rung, absolute classic midlife crisis weekend warrior.

[00:22:53] I'm going to go and do a multi-day endurance event kind of dad, but you know, and he's,

[00:22:58] he's this like insanely capable doyen of this sport.

[00:23:03] So I know I'm not made like that, but I think that's what appeals to me so much about speaking

[00:23:08] to someone like that where you're just like, okay, this isn't me, but my God, like how is

[00:23:13] there things you can do to move your mindset in that, in that way?

[00:23:17] Yeah, definitely.

[00:23:17] And that's the beautiful thing.

[00:23:18] Like, I know, you know, this, like it's, it's not his athletic prowess.

[00:23:21] That's so amazing.

[00:23:22] It's actually his emotional intelligence and that's, you know, and putting voices out there

[00:23:27] and elevating them is how we improve like a lot of the unhealthy masculinity that's out

[00:23:31] there.

[00:23:38] That he can be like, you know, the person's gone down the wrong path or things like that.

[00:23:43] And they go, cool repair.

[00:23:44] How do we come back?

[00:23:45] Totally.

[00:23:45] And just before I listen to the clip, one of the things I loved about Nathan too, is he

[00:23:49] went to great lengths.

[00:23:50] Like he's in, he does adventure racing, which is like, you know, cycling and kayaking and,

[00:23:54] and, and running for many, many days and you're self-supported.

[00:23:57] But what I liked is like, you know, he went to great lengths to sort of go, that's because

[00:24:02] I grew up doing it.

[00:24:03] That's my thing.

[00:24:03] Like that's the thing I do.

[00:24:05] Um, you know, this is now my words, but he's like, he's not a great engineer or ballet

[00:24:10] dancer or guitarist to our knowledge.

[00:24:13] But if you are like, that's your thing.

[00:24:15] And so he was talking about taking kids into his world, taking his kids into his world,

[00:24:18] because that's his thing.

[00:24:19] I think rather than going, you should definitely go kayaking with your children, whether you're

[00:24:23] good at it or not.

[00:24:24] That wasn't his message.

[00:24:27] But yeah, let's, let's listen to the clip and then we'll, we'll discuss.

[00:24:32] So what does composure mean?

[00:24:34] So the composure for me is if, in a, in a sort of another phrase, another way of saying

[00:24:37] it is, is it, my little mantra is, is that nothing will shock me.

[00:24:43] Oh wow.

[00:24:44] That's great.

[00:24:44] So, so when my kids come, come to me or something happens or they've got a request or they've

[00:24:49] got an idea, whatever it might be, my thing, my initial response is nothing is going to

[00:24:55] shock me.

[00:24:55] So if they come up to me and say, Hey dad, blah, blah, blah.

[00:24:58] My whole thing is no matter how shocking that is.

[00:25:01] Yeah.

[00:25:01] So it's more than like, I won't let it shock me.

[00:25:03] Exactly.

[00:25:04] I won't let it.

[00:25:04] Yeah.

[00:25:05] Even if it shocks me, I'm not going to let it show.

[00:25:07] Cause you, cause you have to keep that communication line open.

[00:25:09] So I was like, Oh, that's interesting.

[00:25:10] Even though deep down I'm going, Oh my God, what the hell?

[00:25:13] Yeah.

[00:25:14] Wow.

[00:25:14] Wow.

[00:25:14] So that's, so it's kind of like, and then, but I'll use that in the bench racing team

[00:25:17] as well.

[00:25:18] So it's kind of like, we're out there racing, we're in world champs, you know, there's big

[00:25:22] money on the line.

[00:25:23] My lead navigator, Chris, says to me, man, I don't know what's going on.

[00:25:26] I'm just making it up for example.

[00:25:28] But for me, it's not, it's not like.

[00:25:30] If he says, I'm like, I think we're down the wrong river.

[00:25:32] Yeah.

[00:25:32] It's not like, what the hell?

[00:25:33] You idiot.

[00:25:34] You, what, what's going on?

[00:25:35] We were trying to win a race.

[00:25:36] You know, it's kind of like, Oh, that's interesting.

[00:25:38] Oh, so really?

[00:25:39] Oh, cool.

[00:25:40] Okay.

[00:25:43] Having that pause almost, it allows, yeah, it allows the communication to keep flowing.

[00:25:49] Doesn't turn it into a panic situation.

[00:25:51] Doesn't shut everything down.

[00:25:52] Yeah.

[00:25:53] And it, it, it, it keeps momentum.

[00:25:55] And I think it keeps, it keeps a cap on the emotion as well.

[00:25:57] Cause you kind of just kind of, you know, you sort of just putting that down and going,

[00:26:00] well, look, you probably will have to address the emotion later, but I'm not going to deal

[00:26:05] with it now while I am emotive because that's just not going to, that's just not going to

[00:26:09] be helpful.

[00:26:09] And, and what it does in the, in the team environment, what my experience is, is that

[00:26:14] you move really quickly to, to what another phrase we sort of developed event tracing,

[00:26:19] which is a solution based thinking.

[00:26:22] So it's like, okay.

[00:26:24] Well, I mean, that seems obvious to me that would go hand in hand because you can't be

[00:26:28] thinking of solutions when you're shocked.

[00:26:30] Yeah.

[00:26:30] So if you're like, I won't let something shock me and it's a bit of fake it till you

[00:26:33] make it.

[00:26:33] Right.

[00:26:33] So it was like, if I, if I can successfully portray and become a person that isn't shocked

[00:26:39] by this, I actually have a chance to be that person.

[00:26:41] Yes.

[00:26:42] And then I can move to solving something.

[00:26:43] Yeah.

[00:26:44] Totally.

[00:26:44] Yeah, exactly.

[00:26:45] So I don't need to give you an example.

[00:26:46] So yeah, that's right.

[00:26:46] That's right.

[00:26:48] Yeah.

[00:26:48] It's beautiful.

[00:26:49] Cause I actually see a similarity in how you talk about yourselves as a family, as

[00:26:52] a team.

[00:26:53] And if we can think about ourselves the way he does as like, I'm, I have a leadership

[00:26:57] role in this team and I've got to be responsible and hold more of the responsibility

[00:27:01] for how well we succeed and run this race than my little kids.

[00:27:05] You know, it's a nice frame of reference.

[00:27:07] He's also doing two really beautiful things.

[00:27:09] The first is that he is regulating his own emotions before he goes in there.

[00:27:14] Now you get the sense he's quite good at that.

[00:27:16] Yes.

[00:27:17] I'm less.

[00:27:18] Yeah.

[00:27:18] So I would say the vast majority of us listening to this would be like, if you could pick an

[00:27:23] area to get a bit better at, it would be regulating emotions.

[00:27:26] But talk to me a little bit about like that idea of going, all right, I want to regulate

[00:27:30] my emotions, which isn't not feeling them.

[00:27:32] It's just deciding when they're useful or not.

[00:27:35] Especially if you are trying to put yourself in a leadership position in a team and, or

[00:27:41] a family.

[00:27:41] Definitely.

[00:27:42] So yeah, the first, before we go anywhere near a kid who's struggling, we should think

[00:27:46] about how am I feeling in the moment and self-regulation, we, we learn through co-regulation

[00:27:51] through our childhood.

[00:27:52] And we're also trying to pass that on to our kids.

[00:27:53] Like I was in my mid thirties by the time I figured it out.

[00:27:56] So, you know, I hope that I can give a better, easier journey for my kids.

[00:28:00] Totally.

[00:28:01] It's what would you say to someone who's like, say at the end of the day and they, you know,

[00:28:05] you can feel it sometimes you're like, I'm shitty and their kids are having a bad time.

[00:28:10] What are the steps there to like?

[00:28:12] Yeah.

[00:28:12] So you have to practice it.

[00:28:14] This is stuff isn't magic.

[00:28:15] Like this is based on science and research.

[00:28:17] You know what I mean?

[00:28:17] And I, we might talk later about why I've spent so much time on this because it's, you

[00:28:21] know, it's something that's important to me professionally and personally, but I'll give you an

[00:28:25] example.

[00:28:25] So in clinic, it's two and a half, nearly three year wait.

[00:28:29] Our wait list is getting longer.

[00:28:31] Less than half of, so one in seven kids in primary school have a mental illness and less

[00:28:36] than half of them will ever see a clinician.

[00:28:38] Yeah.

[00:28:38] That's horrific.

[00:28:39] They all should be seeing clinicians and quickly.

[00:28:42] What you're doing in the podcast is giving access and people to reflect and think about

[00:28:45] that.

[00:28:45] This dad, I got a call from the front desk and they said, Billy, you've had a cancellation

[00:28:50] in the day.

[00:28:50] I was like, sweet.

[00:28:51] And I go, but we've put a family in.

[00:28:54] They're driving from three hours away.

[00:28:55] Wow.

[00:28:56] They've been waiting nearly two years, but they're really desperate.

[00:28:58] This mum rolls in with four kids and a huge man.

[00:29:01] He stands at the door at the entrance, refuses to sit down and refuses to say what his name

[00:29:05] is or anything.

[00:29:06] He just has his arms crossed, doesn't want to be there.

[00:29:08] There's four kids.

[00:29:09] There's a little newborn baby that he's the dad of.

[00:29:11] The other three kids are not his kids.

[00:29:14] The seven-year-old is getting in heaps of trouble and being really violent and not able to attend

[00:29:19] school at all.

[00:29:20] And school has said until he's sorted out, he can't come back.

[00:29:23] Common story.

[00:29:24] An educator is the most important professionals in our community and need to be better supported.

[00:29:27] But I meet lots of kids.

[00:29:28] I love meeting these kids.

[00:29:30] They're my favorite kids to meet.

[00:29:31] We go through the whole thing.

[00:29:32] Mum's like really struggling, disadvantaged community.

[00:29:35] I don't know what to do.

[00:29:36] He doesn't listen to me.

[00:29:37] He's violent with his siblings, all that stuff.

[00:29:40] I get to the end of the consult and the dad can obviously tell them wrapping up.

[00:29:44] The first time he says anything to me, he looks down at me.

[00:29:46] I'm sitting down.

[00:29:47] We're all sitting down together and he's standing over us.

[00:29:49] And he says, I've got a question for you.

[00:29:52] He goes, how come when I hit him, and he points to the seven-year-old, he's scared of me for days.

[00:29:58] He genuinely didn't understand it.

[00:30:00] That's how he was raised and no one taught him any better.

[00:30:03] So it was the only tool that he had was that when he was pissed off, he went in and was violent

[00:30:07] towards the kid.

[00:30:08] And there's a whole like child protection notification and stuff.

[00:30:11] But what I did, what that dad gave me was an opportunity to teach him the first step, which

[00:30:16] is what we're talking about, emotional regulation.

[00:30:17] He cannot go anywhere near that kid until he's calm.

[00:30:20] And we work together for him to help understand what am I feeling, what's going on.

[00:30:26] And mindfulness is so misinterpreted.

[00:30:29] Mindfulness is just what is happening to me.

[00:30:31] Not trying to understand why and not trying to be judgmental.

[00:30:35] And what Nathan does beautifully there is he steps then towards the kid non-judgmentally.

[00:30:40] He can be like, it can be wild what they're telling me.

[00:30:43] But often our kids are coming to us really sensitive to us judging them.

[00:30:46] As you're a bad kid, I can't believe you can't handle this.

[00:30:49] Why are you so stressed?

[00:30:50] You know?

[00:30:51] And so if we can go non-judgmentally, it's really, really powerful for those kids.

[00:30:55] Totally.

[00:30:55] And if we can actually check ourselves and learn over thousands of iterations and opportunities

[00:31:00] where we'll fail a lot at it, but go, actually, this is really important to me.

[00:31:05] The same as like dropping a handicap or getting better at adventure racing or whatever.

[00:31:09] I practice at this.

[00:31:10] I've learned how I feel when I'm getting early like that.

[00:31:13] And I've learned to step away and do whatever I need to do.

[00:31:16] And it's really particular and individual.

[00:31:18] Every parent, every kid I've met, what that is, what those signs are.

[00:31:21] But I get to let the kid lead me and teach me what it is for them.

[00:31:24] And the parents go along with that journey as well.

[00:31:26] I love that idea of just even just simply taking away that idea of going,

[00:31:30] I'm just going to practice checking my emotions a bit.

[00:31:35] Just a bit.

[00:31:36] Just get a bit better at putting them aside and you can come back to them later.

[00:31:39] Yeah.

[00:31:40] And just being aware of them.

[00:31:41] I just thought it was such a beautiful demonstration of like,

[00:31:44] how do we actually make sure that we remain curious and composed and regulate our emotions?

[00:31:50] And there'll be lots of us like me and maybe you that that doesn't come naturally to.

[00:31:54] And it's really hard and we have to put heaps of work in.

[00:31:56] But it's a huge payoff.

[00:31:58] Payoff there.

[00:31:59] Unreal.

[00:32:00] All right, Ben Quilty.

[00:32:01] The clip here I know you've chosen is a beautiful story that Ben told about.

[00:32:06] And I took a lot out of the story.

[00:32:08] But it's essentially about, you know, guiding his boy through failure, I suppose,

[00:32:13] for want of a better term, at cricket.

[00:32:15] Let's have a little listen to it.

[00:32:18] I've always thought that if you do, in every situation, you do your best.

[00:32:23] And that's not doing your best like trying to hit 100 every time playing cricket.

[00:32:28] It's also, well, of course it is.

[00:32:30] But when you get out playing cricket, you do that the best way you can as well.

[00:32:35] Yeah.

[00:32:35] So it's not about success in a sense.

[00:32:37] It's about living in a fulfilled way.

[00:32:40] Dealing with failure, I think, is one of the key things I wanted to teach my children.

[00:32:44] Yep.

[00:32:44] Because it's so important to do that.

[00:32:46] People don't get back up often and they let things, hold grudges and let things drag on

[00:32:51] and epically change their life when really you should just step up and move through it.

[00:32:56] What were some of the ways that you helped teach your kids to be okay with failure?

[00:33:01] Well, Joey, and I use cricket as an analogy particularly with Joe because he's a fanatic.

[00:33:06] He loves it.

[00:33:07] He's obsessed.

[00:33:07] And he's good at it.

[00:33:08] But he did not take lightly getting out ever.

[00:33:12] And we had to work hard on that.

[00:33:15] Do you remember what you said?

[00:33:15] I mean, in a moment like that for a child or a young teenager, it's about keeping communication going and going and going,

[00:33:23] even though it feels really unnatural for you, pushing that communication to, you know,

[00:33:28] whether we're successful or not, to making them well-rounded.

[00:33:31] And in those moments, he doesn't want to talk.

[00:33:34] And I didn't feel like talking if he doesn't want to talk.

[00:33:36] But as the adult, you have to take that forward and try and make an effort to keep the communication going.

[00:33:42] And I guess just point out, really for me, the simplest way was to point out the excitement of that little boy who got him out

[00:33:48] and that that's such a great moment.

[00:33:50] When you got someone out, how excited did you feel?

[00:33:53] And would you want to take that away from that child?

[00:33:55] That's a very, that's a great take on it.

[00:33:59] It is.

[00:34:00] That was not where my head was at all when I was, you know,

[00:34:03] because I think you hear these examples with guests on the podcast and you're like,

[00:34:05] hmm, how would I do that?

[00:34:06] And I was like, oh, God, that's really good.

[00:34:08] Yeah, same.

[00:34:09] I actually, I got something out of that.

[00:34:11] So it will help me in my practice because it was this beautiful way that he understood that the kid was able to pick it up

[00:34:18] and then built a really important pro-social skill and think about the other kid.

[00:34:22] And what that actually is developmentally is what we call theory of mind.

[00:34:26] And now theory of mind is I can sit here and go, you're having a different experience during this conversation.

[00:34:31] And maybe Tim's having a different experience.

[00:34:33] The problem is if I was really stressed and nervous, I have no capacity to think about what's going on for either of you.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:40] And so a lot of conflict that happens for kids or parents is they really struggle.

[00:34:44] And we're hated, especially if we think that person is harming us or attacking us.

[00:34:48] Yeah.

[00:34:48] We have no ability to think about them.

[00:34:50] And that's why we shouldn't do it in kids who are bullied or anxious or whatever.

[00:34:54] But this is beautiful because this is a source of success for this kid.

[00:34:58] He like has pride in it and he succeeds and intrinsic value, all that stuff, mastery, all that beautiful stuff is there.

[00:35:04] But he's struggling with one component of it, which is failure.

[00:35:07] The two bits that are really important to this is yes, we need to guide our kids in failure.

[00:35:11] Like you and I should make sure that we demonstrate failure to our kids.

[00:35:14] We openly talk about it.

[00:35:16] And even I love that bit where Ben goes like I want you to fail well, like learn how to – you don't have to win, but you have to lose well.

[00:35:25] Like we all know the theory of being a good winner and a good loser.

[00:35:30] But even just that idea of going, it reminded me – I haven't said this yet, but it reminded me like to – with the kids, with sport, we're like, you know, it's natural to go like how did the game go?

[00:35:41] And they're like, oh, we won, we lost.

[00:35:43] But even just that next question to be like, well, did you lose well?

[00:35:46] Like did the team lose well?

[00:35:48] And like I'm proud of you if you guys lost well.

[00:35:51] Yeah.

[00:35:51] Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

[00:35:53] Because he's really instilling this really high level of moral development and like –

[00:35:58] Amazing.

[00:35:59] You know, and empathy for the other kid.

[00:36:01] Yeah.

[00:36:01] And so it's interesting because what we know developmentally is that three-year-olds can't do that.

[00:36:06] Like they just can't.

[00:36:07] They are too what we're calling eccentric but not in a bad way.

[00:36:10] They just can't understand that other people have different experiences.

[00:36:13] Some four-year-olds and almost all five-year-olds can do it though.

[00:36:16] The problem that happens is that even including teenagers, I meet teenagers that are still at a three-year-old level in that.

[00:36:23] Yeah.

[00:36:23] Because they've had traumatic experiences.

[00:36:26] They haven't had opportunities to demonstrate failure and be okay with it.

[00:36:29] They haven't had the emotional regulation built in them and so they just dysregulate all the time and they become the three-year-old again.

[00:36:35] Yeah.

[00:36:35] That's like I don't care what the other kid felt.

[00:36:37] I don't care if he wins.

[00:36:38] I don't give it, you know, and just blow up.

[00:36:41] And we can't then be keep pressing them on like well think about how good that other kid feels.

[00:36:45] You've got to go to that bit and then step through to that really beautiful thing about you are so good at thinking about other people and reinforcing the joy that they experience and the positive parts of their life.

[00:36:57] And that should be one of the highest echelons of like what we're aiming for in all of our kids is how do you celebrate the success that others experience even if it's in a failure at the cost of a failure to ourselves.

[00:37:09] Yeah.

[00:37:09] Yeah.

[00:37:10] I love, again, pretty simple thing to do but to hold that in such high esteem to go if we can celebrate people, we're a good person.

[00:37:20] Yeah, but as a society like you and I can sit here and name so many people that win premierships and do all that stuff but try and think about someone who's good at failing.

[00:37:29] Yeah.

[00:37:30] Do you know what I mean?

[00:37:30] And celebrates people during it.

[00:37:32] Yeah, exactly.

[00:37:33] But also –

[00:37:33] But they are there everywhere.

[00:37:34] They're everywhere and you can –

[00:37:35] We just don't elevate.

[00:37:36] You can think of people in your life who do that and you're like 100% that's the person you want to be around.

[00:37:41] Totally.

[00:37:42] Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:42] But culturally we kind of idolize the victory instead of actually compassion, especially in men.

[00:37:48] So if we can start doing that more, it's amazing.

[00:37:50] It starts when we're little kids.

[00:37:52] So true.

[00:37:53] Andy Griffiths.

[00:37:55] Andy Griffiths, the author of the Treehouse books.

[00:37:59] What did you like about Andy's episode?

[00:38:01] What jumped out?

[00:38:01] Well, you can just see how much he's thought about all of this stuff.

[00:38:04] So like in the whole episode, he's like really just talking about his exploration of being a parent and there's this really cool –

[00:38:12] because when you start and you hear this story at first, like, oh, man.

[00:38:15] And, you know, but then you can see what he does is what all of us should do.

[00:38:18] He changes how he is with the kid based on the kid in front of him.

[00:38:21] So this was a fine thing.

[00:38:23] It was funny.

[00:38:23] And then it wasn't.

[00:38:25] And then he adapts and changes.

[00:38:27] And that's what we need to do is we look out for flares.

[00:38:30] And he's got this beautiful description about how we see a developmental change from a preschool-aged kid

[00:38:35] is how he starts talking about this story to a primary school-aged kid and then an adult.

[00:38:40] And the kind of course that goes through.

[00:38:42] Okay.

[00:38:42] I love that.

[00:38:46] Speaking of the day my bum went psycho and we're talking about dating, when we did the first book,

[00:38:52] I had a picture of a baby's bum from a chemist's catalogue.

[00:38:57] And I thought, oh, this would be really funny if I take that and put it against a city landscape.

[00:39:03] It'll look like a giant bum is attacking the city.

[00:39:05] And so that was the first cover.

[00:39:08] They got a photo image from a library of a baby's bottom.

[00:39:11] And then when we went to do a reprint, they said, no, you can't have that baby's bottom anymore

[00:39:16] because we've sold it exclusively to another company.

[00:39:20] And so me and Jill were like, Jill being the editor and co-writer, we looked at our daughter Sarah,

[00:39:27] who was three years old at the time, running around without her pants on.

[00:39:30] And we went, what do you think?

[00:39:33] Can we...

[00:39:35] Should we commercialise that bum?

[00:39:37] Yeah.

[00:39:39] And that's her bum on all the covers.

[00:39:41] How does she feel about that now as a grown woman?

[00:39:44] She's been on a journey with it because at three she didn't care.

[00:39:47] She thought it was funny.

[00:39:48] She was pulling her pants down a lot because bums are funny.

[00:39:53] And then when she was in primary school, the kids were always asking, whose bum is it?

[00:39:58] Whose bum is it?

[00:39:59] And I'd always do a session for her grade, whatever grade she was in.

[00:40:03] Around four, grade four or five, I noticed she was really freezing up at this question.

[00:40:09] Yeah, that's interesting.

[00:40:10] And the kids go, whose bum is it?

[00:40:12] And I'm going, well, if I was to tell you.

[00:40:14] And I noticed she was there just crying.

[00:40:17] Oh, really?

[00:40:17] Thinking I was going to reveal the embarrassing information.

[00:40:21] That's very interesting.

[00:40:22] And I said, well, obviously I can't tell you.

[00:40:25] It's a professional bum model.

[00:40:26] Yeah.

[00:40:26] And now at 23 she thinks it's very funny again.

[00:40:31] What a perfect little analogy though of like the way our, you know, self-consciousness develops and then matures, you know, throughout life.

[00:40:43] Yeah, really interesting.

[00:40:44] Yeah.

[00:40:45] And so but what he does is beautiful because then you can tell he stops telling the story that it's her bum.

[00:40:49] And he's like, I needed to shift because she was showing me that wasn't okay.

[00:40:53] And it's the classic like we actually have to parent our kids in a completely different way all the time because we have to evolve with them.

[00:41:00] And he's just got this beautiful story about how he does that through the life course.

[00:41:04] And then she laughs about it as an adult, which is, you know, you can tell it's this healthy journey.

[00:41:08] Yeah.

[00:41:09] And it's this beautiful like sensitivity in him about she's actually going through this window of identity that I need to actually change how I am about her.

[00:41:21] Because when it was three, it was this funny thing that probably had a lot of pride.

[00:41:24] And then she wasn't okay with it.

[00:41:27] And yeah, he flexes.

[00:41:28] And if we can just watch the kid in front of us.

[00:41:30] And the hardest thing is, especially for parents, is that often when a kid is doing something that we don't see as who they are or it goes against what our values or who we see ourselves as, we'll often come down on them and try and push them back into that rush or be really frustrated with them.

[00:41:46] And if we can actually lean into kids and go, actually, I'm the one that's stuck in mindset here.

[00:41:52] I need to shift.

[00:41:53] So anytime like let's say, for example, you catch yourself thinking like, why do you do X?

[00:41:58] Like don't do that.

[00:41:59] Do Y.

[00:42:00] That should be a little red flag to us to be like, well, what if X is who they are?

[00:42:07] Totally.

[00:42:07] There's always a reason.

[00:42:09] And, you know, if we can kind of look at kids and instead of, for example, instead of saying it's okay, like say she's getting nervous and all the kids are laughing and we go, it's okay and dismiss her needs.

[00:42:20] Actually, we should always try and replace it's okay with I'm here.

[00:42:23] And what that does is defines our role, but also makes us go, what do you need right now?

[00:42:27] You actually need me to stop telling a story about how it's your bum.

[00:42:30] You actually need me to say, maybe you don't need to go to school today.

[00:42:33] Maybe I actually need to reinforce the relationship.

[00:42:36] Or maybe we're going to run late because I need to drop down to your level and just spend a couple of minutes connecting with you and not just force you into the car.

[00:42:43] So good.

[00:42:43] I love I'm here instead of it's okay.

[00:42:46] Okay.

[00:42:47] All right.

[00:42:48] Your next selection comes from Wayne Hope, our first step of the season.

[00:42:52] What was it about Wayne or what part of Wayne's stood out to you?

[00:42:56] This one kind of connected with me on a professional level because I meet a lot of kids that have experienced developmental trauma or adverse childhood experiences.

[00:43:06] And I grew up in that environment as well.

[00:43:09] Adverse childhood experiences is neglect.

[00:43:12] So physical and emotional abuse, physical, sexual and emotional and household dysfunction.

[00:43:19] So, you know, really violent domestic violence, intimate partner violence, mental illness, drug use in the home, you know, just chaos.

[00:43:29] Yeah.

[00:43:29] And those developmental trauma is the biggest predictor of adult mental health service use.

[00:43:34] Yeah.

[00:43:35] So all these kids that are like struggling out there that are breaking into houses or committing intimate partner violence, that was not their destiny.

[00:43:42] And what they have often experienced is these things.

[00:43:45] And we need to catch them early as early as possible and protect them from that.

[00:43:49] And what he shares is this beautiful vulnerability around that and knowing that one in five kids in Australia experiences three or more of those that I've just listed.

[00:44:00] Jesus.

[00:44:00] That's huge.

[00:44:01] Unbelievable.

[00:44:02] I mean, Wayne's was such a powerful episode.

[00:44:03] Let's hear that a little bit.

[00:44:08] I was estranged from my father for probably from the age of 12.

[00:44:13] He was very violent.

[00:44:14] He was, had a very heavy home life of domestic violence.

[00:44:20] He was very violent with my mother, which culminated in him trying to take her life when I was 12.

[00:44:29] And which, you know, the destruction obviously that happens in a family when that occurs and to children is, you know, enormous.

[00:44:40] And the repercussions, you don't understand, you know, you have to try and come to terms with well into your adult life to realise what that's done.

[00:44:51] So common.

[00:44:52] But children, unfortunately, we don't know.

[00:44:55] You accept your reality and you don't know there's another reality.

[00:44:59] So the horrible thing for people that are suffering in situations of domestic violence is they learn this behaviour the same way you learn all the good traits of parenting.

[00:45:09] And your environment is what you're soaking in and you're learning.

[00:45:13] Perspective.

[00:45:13] That's how you communicate.

[00:45:14] That's how you empathise.

[00:45:16] And so I, against this backdrop, struggled in relationships.

[00:45:22] I was, you know, classic.

[00:45:23] I was kind of naughty at high school as a result, acted out, did all that sort of stuff.

[00:45:28] But I was terrified, you know, like terrified what you do with that backdrop.

[00:45:34] You know, I remember being in a biology class and them talking about genetics when I was in like year nine or something and me just absolutely screaming at the teacher and this explosion of kind of rage because out of the thought of if it's genetics, I'm fucked.

[00:45:49] That was the, you know, probably the start of realising that I'm absolutely riddled with fear and terror and how to try and work this out.

[00:46:03] Man, it was so, I mean, it was amazing that Wayne did that, came on, took that step and shared it.

[00:46:12] And it was so illuminating too because you're like, yes, we have this massive problem with domestic violence.

[00:46:18] But then as you know full well, like, you know, you're on the front line, the kids in that situation too, what that does, the ripple effect, like the damage that that does too down the generations is huge.

[00:46:32] Yeah, definitely.

[00:46:33] And it's interesting he shares this kind of insight into how it still affects the adult years.

[00:46:37] And with those of us that have experienced that and I witnessed awful things, the scars that will never heal during my childhood, it's probably why I do the work that I do.

[00:46:48] I'm looking for myself in clinic.

[00:46:49] I'm trying to help her.

[00:46:51] I couldn't help my mum and I never got to.

[00:46:53] And, you know, I tried to when I was a little kid, but I didn't have the skill set that I do now.

[00:46:59] But he's this beautiful vulnerability around like that's what we learn.

[00:47:03] And I learned that.

[00:47:05] I learned violence.

[00:47:05] I learned hostility.

[00:47:08] But the healing process came through relationships.

[00:47:11] And when we think about adverse childhood experiences, there's also this beautiful research, which is interesting for you and I to think about our two kids, not that we share children, but the children that we have respectively, about these seven things.

[00:47:25] And we can kind of almost go through them.

[00:47:27] Three of them exist in our family home.

[00:47:29] Four of them exist outside of it.

[00:47:31] All right.

[00:47:31] These are antidotes to kids who have experienced developmental trauma, but they're also protective factors for kids that haven't.

[00:47:38] The three in the home are really interesting to think about.

[00:47:41] It's I can talk about my feelings in this home.

[00:47:44] Yeah.

[00:47:44] During calm and during tough times.

[00:47:48] Yeah.

[00:47:48] Vital.

[00:47:48] Vital.

[00:47:49] Always something you can work better on, I suppose, to create that space to reinforce that message.

[00:47:53] Yeah.

[00:47:53] And I try and do that really well.

[00:47:55] And remember, the lesson is that every emotion is valid.

[00:47:57] Like, you know, a lot of boys have to push down feeling scared or feeling sad or feeling frightened.

[00:48:03] That's not what a man is, you know.

[00:48:05] And thinking about how do we help all kids understand that anger is a valid feeling and it's okay to have that.

[00:48:11] And how do we then guide them to healthy ways to deal with it?

[00:48:14] The second one is, you know, my family sticks by me in tough times.

[00:48:17] And that's why even if it's the day your kid gets kicked out of school, you lean into them.

[00:48:22] You know, nothing's going to change this relationship.

[00:48:24] Like, nothing that you do, even if it's the most disappointed I've ever been, we do it together.

[00:48:29] Yeah.

[00:48:30] And I'm with you and I take more responsibility than you.

[00:48:33] The third is thinking about, you know, from the one person in my home, one person keeps me safe.

[00:48:41] And that's really important.

[00:48:43] There's a lot of parents that are often mums that are trying to protect their kids from awful stuff that's happening in a home.

[00:48:49] We need to support them.

[00:48:51] And really think about how do we identify them, make sure they don't feel like they're less than us because they reach out for help.

[00:48:57] They're not every parent.

[00:48:59] You know, I'm no better than any parent out there, including the parents that have their kids taken off them by child protection.

[00:49:04] They're just holding more weight than I am.

[00:49:06] And I couldn't hold the weight that they do.

[00:49:08] And it's a privilege that I get to support them.

[00:49:10] That's why I love these episodes with you, Billy, because to hear it articulated, you know, even – and everyone will fall somewhere on this spectrum here of what they think they're doing or not doing or could improve on at home.

[00:49:24] But just to hear it articulated is just so useful to go, great.

[00:49:28] Are we doing this stuff?

[00:49:30] How can we make – how can we do more of it?

[00:49:32] And how can we implement these systems?

[00:49:35] We need to make time for those three things, you know, and actually put effort in.

[00:49:39] And probably the most important one is the second one of when you are struggling and I'm finding you frustrating, that's when I actually need to prove that I unconditionally love you.

[00:49:48] Yeah, yeah.

[00:49:49] You know, that's when you earn it.

[00:49:50] Not when our kids are doing everything we want them to, knocking the lights out.

[00:49:54] Yeah, yeah.

[00:49:54] Then they're good at sharing and they're looking after each other.

[00:49:56] Yeah.

[00:49:57] Often we enforce – you know, we go, oh, you're just so amazing and I love you.

[00:50:01] Thanks for making the dishwasher.

[00:50:01] Great.

[00:50:02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:50:03] So they feel good about themselves but they can sometimes feel like their love is conditional on them performing and doing what they want us to do.

[00:50:09] So thinking about do I lean in but also do we have open conversations about emotions?

[00:50:14] The four outside of the home are really important.

[00:50:17] The first one is feel a sense of belonging in school.

[00:50:20] Yeah.

[00:50:20] And every single kid in the world should feel a genuine sense of belonging in school and that's what true inclusion is.

[00:50:27] Every kid makes our community stronger.

[00:50:29] It's not some generosity thing.

[00:50:32] It's we are a stronger community because every single kid contributes into it in a way that they care and something they're good at and they see the strength in themselves going right back to the first clip we talked about.

[00:50:42] Totally.

[00:50:43] And that's why, you know, my PhD is in how do we build capacity in educators because I think they're the most important of all of us as professionals that work around these kids.

[00:50:51] The second is, you know, genuine friendships, friends that stand by me and, you know, thinking about how do we facilitate opportunities for our kids.

[00:50:59] And that's a really important part that you and I need to think about.

[00:51:02] How do we set that up, you know, and scaffold opportunities for successful relationships, understanding that early primary school they're quite superficial but very quickly those friendships have depth to them.

[00:51:14] Yeah.

[00:51:14] And making sure we give opportunity for depth.

[00:51:17] The third of the four things outside of the home is participating in community traditions.

[00:51:22] It's kind of like it's the underwater hockey.

[00:51:25] Yeah.

[00:51:25] Do you know what I mean?

[00:51:26] It's like how do you form a part of this and get to celebrate that?

[00:51:31] And the multiculturalism of Australia is a beautiful opportunity to have diversity and option about that.

[00:51:36] And also is a key part of that, is a good part of that, just that it also involves other adults that aren't mum and dad and then there's other members of the community and you're worthwhile to them.

[00:51:46] Beautiful and great segue.

[00:51:48] It's like we scripted that because the fourth and final of the seven is two non-parental adults to take a genuine interest in me.

[00:51:54] Yeah.

[00:51:54] Awesome.

[00:51:54] And like when I watch my close mates like lift up my kids and play with them, yeah, it fills my heart.

[00:52:02] Like those are the best experiences in my week, whether it's Nick that I do pop culture parenting with.

[00:52:07] He's like genuinely, he is a primary figure in my kid's life and we're all really struggling with not having enough of them in our kid's lives.

[00:52:15] But we should think about like with all of those seven things, what do we need to drop to reduce the demand that's on us as an individual to have the capacity to prioritize some of those things?

[00:52:26] And that's why like I fully advocate for like don't worry about vegetables, don't worry about homework, don't worry about like full attendance at school, whatever it is.

[00:52:35] Build relationships, build relationships, build the priorities around that, participate in community traditions, sense of belonging at school, feel safe at home.

[00:52:42] We talk about emotions, do you have good friendships, all of that stuff.

[00:52:45] I do that in clinic more than I write a script or give a diagnosis.

[00:52:49] Totally.

[00:52:50] Like it's funny coming to the end of the year, school report cards, it's almost like I feel like that's our report card to go like how are we going as parents?

[00:53:00] Are we going as the leaders of this team to go are we putting in place the stuff for these things?

[00:53:06] Because whatever school report card says, you know, I'm with you.

[00:53:11] This stuff is more important.

[00:53:12] And totally it's really amazing because what educators, I often see families in clinic that are in conflict with teachers.

[00:53:17] And if I can win their trust a bit, I will say to them, next time you talk to the teacher, actually ask them how you can help support what the teacher is doing.

[00:53:27] And they kind of go, well, no, that's their job to like do this.

[00:53:30] But it's not really like they've had to take all of the weight of the missing community that's gone and schools are the last bastion of it.

[00:53:36] And thinking about how do I actually support this teacher in supporting my kids is a nice reframe away from this teacher needs to be doing more.

[00:53:44] That's so true, isn't it?

[00:53:45] Like, I mean, again, if you're not, you know, like we all know it takes a village is it comes from a great place.

[00:53:55] And I think it's a big part of like, you know, especially urban, like modern society where we yearn for that feeling of being like,

[00:54:02] wouldn't it be awesome if we had this whole community of trusted people around the kids like, you know, other cultures have.

[00:54:10] But what we do have, as you said, like, yeah, school's the last bastion.

[00:54:13] That's their last little village.

[00:54:15] And it's obviously so important.

[00:54:17] Yeah.

[00:54:17] And the system is really broken for a lot of kids.

[00:54:19] And that's why I like the homeschooling community is quite amazing because they've come up and said there's a need not being met for a lot of these kids and families.

[00:54:25] So we'll come around them and support them.

[00:54:27] But it's the system.

[00:54:28] It's not educators.

[00:54:29] Like educators is some of the best professionals.

[00:54:31] Educators and social workers are like the best professionals ever met because they actually do it.

[00:54:35] I claim a zoo at Inclinic but I just say let's prioritize that instead of starting a medication for this kid's behavior.

[00:54:41] Yeah.

[00:54:41] And then I see that journey and experience that change and it's amazing.

[00:54:44] But they actually do the work.

[00:54:46] Awesome.

[00:54:46] Love the seven things.

[00:54:47] Can I add one thing quickly, Billy, that Wayne said which I think would strike a chord to a lot of people which is him talking about working on himself.

[00:54:56] And before he, you know, made grand plans to take his kids on adventures or do amazing things, he had to turn the spotlight on himself and the discipline it took to do that and how scared of it he was.

[00:55:09] But I think that was the inspiring thing Wayne touched on which is he owned up to the fact that he had to work on himself before he could even approach the relationship with his kids.

[00:55:17] Can you talk a little bit about that self-care element?

[00:55:21] Yeah.

[00:55:21] And I think another really interesting thing from that clip is that insight into it often starts with us.

[00:55:27] And I think like, you know, it's funny because I think a lot of people are like, oh, you're a professional.

[00:55:32] You'll guide us professionally.

[00:55:33] But one of the things that I try and really do is make people feel okay about doing that because I do that.

[00:55:40] Like, I, you know, I fight demons in myself.

[00:55:44] I have insecure self-esteem.

[00:55:46] I, you know, really struggle with a lot of the wounds that I've felt through my childhood and adult life.

[00:55:52] And I go and see someone professionally about it.

[00:55:55] And it's really important that that's actually okay.

[00:55:58] And one of the best feedback that pop culture parenting or the book gets is like,

[00:56:02] you actually made me feel it was okay to go and see someone and realize that I need to shift away from trying to figure out why this kid is doing this

[00:56:09] or annoying me so much and realize it's me.

[00:56:11] And it's the hardest thing in clinic, especially with like phenomenal moms that sacrifice themselves,

[00:56:17] is saying, I think you need to get support and you need to be better supported.

[00:56:21] Because I, and they go, oh, I'll be fine once my kid's fine.

[00:56:24] But it doesn't work that way.

[00:56:25] Goes the other way around.

[00:56:26] Yeah, it goes the other way around.

[00:56:27] And that's the thing like with Wayne doing that, with you doing that, I think it sets a great example to go,

[00:56:35] this is how you move past.

[00:56:37] Just, this is how you don't pass it on.

[00:56:39] And it's possible to address it.

[00:56:42] Oh, always.

[00:56:42] And it's really possible to not pass it on.

[00:56:44] Because it was clear from Wayne to like how scared he was of passing it on.

[00:56:48] Yeah.

[00:56:48] And he's this beautiful story about breaking that cycle.

[00:56:51] And that's, you know, I'm trying to do that with parents who aren't able to break it on their own,

[00:56:56] you know, and thinking about how do we reflect on that and realize that's where it's coming from.

[00:57:01] That sensitivity in us when our kid doesn't listen is because when I was like, I didn't get supported,

[00:57:07] I got screamed at.

[00:57:08] It's the only approach I overheard.

[00:57:09] And thinking about actually I need to deal with myself first before I actually have the skill set to go in and support this kid.

[00:57:17] Yeah.

[00:57:18] Yeah.

[00:57:18] Unreal.

[00:57:19] The last clip is Paddy Brummel.

[00:57:22] What was it about Paddy that jumped out?

[00:57:24] Well, I mean, he was great, but it's actually you.

[00:57:26] Because in what I know of you, in what I know of you, I think, you know,

[00:57:33] I've done 14 years of full-time university in this area and I still stuff it up all the time with my kids.

[00:57:39] Like I, you know, I've been doing.

[00:57:40] And I'm able to stuff it up with no training.

[00:57:42] So I've saved 14 years.

[00:57:44] Yeah.

[00:57:45] So what you actually do though is I just know because I've spoken to you over the years about how much you're like realizing that there's all these adjustments that you can make.

[00:57:56] And then there's this beautiful interaction that you have where you kind of realize you've stuffed it up.

[00:58:02] You have the ability to not only then see that in yourself, but you have a kid who has an open voice and a safe space to say,

[00:58:10] I think you stuffed this up.

[00:58:12] And then instead of going, I'm going to put up a wall against that because I don't want my kid to know that I'm not perfect at this.

[00:58:19] You actually do this beautiful thing.

[00:58:21] It's the opposite.

[00:58:22] And you say, actually, I think you're right.

[00:58:24] And you acknowledge it and you look for growth from it.

[00:58:26] I can't quite remember the story, but I will say that whatever I did, I was largely a thank you to all the men that we've had on the show.

[00:58:34] I reckon it always inspires me and I absolutely include you at the top of this list to implement things like this in our lives.

[00:58:45] And I think that's been the beauty of being able to do this show.

[00:58:48] Like I genuinely feel the change just purely from the attention and the example that I think the men on this show set.

[00:58:56] So I vaguely remember what this is about, but let's hear the clip anyway.

[00:59:01] My job is to equip them for the world.

[00:59:05] I think that's what we're all trying to do.

[00:59:07] We've all just got different points of view on how to do that.

[00:59:09] Totally.

[00:59:10] It's not about knowing how to do it either.

[00:59:11] It's about engagement or modeling, you know, all those kinds of same things.

[00:59:16] It's about being the person, being the best person I can be.

[00:59:20] Doing it.

[00:59:20] Doing it every day so that she can see it as well.

[00:59:24] And that means seeing all the flaws and all the weaknesses and all that sort of shit, as long as I'm honest about it.

[00:59:28] I sometimes find that's how important to think about for my kids.

[00:59:31] I'm like, I've found them incredibly forgiving already.

[00:59:34] Oh, really?

[00:59:34] Even at pre-10 years old.

[00:59:38] Because we do have a lot of conversations where I'm like, I didn't get this right.

[00:59:42] And I reckon, hey, before I think that was the wrong thing to do.

[00:59:46] I approached that the wrong way.

[00:59:48] Yeah.

[00:59:48] And I'm amazed how when you have those conversations with a kid, they're really forgiving.

[00:59:56] With your kids, you have those conversations.

[00:59:58] Yeah.

[00:59:58] Yeah.

[00:59:59] There was one that happened the other day.

[01:00:00] This was a real sloppy moment for me.

[01:00:04] But again, one of those ones where it kind of comes out of your mouth and you're like, that was bad.

[01:00:08] But there was squabbling about something and it sounded like, it felt like something that was like threatening Rudy.

[01:00:14] Not physically, but like, you know, I'll do, I don't know, take this from your room or, you know.

[01:00:19] Yeah.

[01:00:19] It was just territorial.

[01:00:20] Like a lot of stuff's like rooms and possession stuff.

[01:00:22] Fortunately, territory goes away as an adult.

[01:00:24] You don't, you stop worrying about territorial.

[01:00:32] Yeah.

[01:00:32] Right.

[01:00:32] Yeah.

[01:00:32] And I was like, if you do that, if you, I mean it like if you follow through, it was like a weekend.

[01:00:37] I was like, that's it.

[01:00:38] There'll be no, there'll be no screen time or something.

[01:00:40] The stuff's like real basic doesn't work.

[01:00:43] I'm not, it's not something I endorse.

[01:00:45] Punishments just don't work.

[01:00:47] But in my books, but I still did it.

[01:00:50] Anyway, everyone kind of went away.

[01:00:51] He was like really upset.

[01:00:52] I think because you still, you followed through.

[01:00:55] You made the threat.

[01:00:55] No, I made the threat.

[01:00:56] Right.

[01:00:56] Right.

[01:00:57] So he went away.

[01:00:58] I went away.

[01:00:58] I was like, that felt bad.

[01:01:00] We all sort of cooled down and I went back and I was like, Hey, you know, can I talk to you for a bit?

[01:01:05] I said, I don't think that, I don't think that was great before.

[01:01:08] And I want to apologize.

[01:01:09] I don't think I handled that very well.

[01:01:10] I said, I probably came in late there and I didn't really understand what was going on.

[01:01:15] Like help me understand what was going on a bit more because I believe you.

[01:01:19] I believe Rue.

[01:01:20] We got to figure it all out together.

[01:01:21] And then he goes, he goes, you know, I did think it was sort of weird that you were angry at me for threatening Rudy.

[01:01:27] And then you just threatened to take away my screen time.

[01:01:29] Oh boy.

[01:01:29] I was like, that's very wise.

[01:01:32] Shit.

[01:01:33] I was like, that's very true.

[01:01:35] I said, I just turned around and I threatened you straight away.

[01:01:39] Oh my God.

[01:01:39] I was like, good ones, honey.

[01:01:41] How dare he knows that and see that.

[01:01:44] I said, and that just goes to show I'm just as guilty as anyone else.

[01:01:50] Yeah.

[01:01:51] Yeah.

[01:01:51] They are.

[01:01:52] That was a good, that was a very wise get from Sonny Boy.

[01:01:56] Why do you think he's like that?

[01:01:59] Well, he's just, he's extremely astute.

[01:02:04] But I loved even just hearing that.

[01:02:06] Like I do, there's a part of me that, you know, loves that he can say that.

[01:02:11] Especially because I know the kind of moment that would have come from like that heated moment where, you know, it would have come from a moment where they were both saying stuff that made me disappoint.

[01:02:21] Like, you know, I would have been watching that exchange being like, oh my God, you guys, the thing that triggers me a little bit is like you guys are being, you're finding a reason to be angry at each other.

[01:02:31] Like, look at all this great thing.

[01:02:33] All these reasons we have to be, I think we've talked about it before.

[01:02:35] All these great reasons we have to be happy and grateful.

[01:02:37] And you guys are having an argument over a toy you don't care about because the other one wants it and you're just trying to have a power struggle with each other.

[01:02:46] And it just, that's the thing that sets me off where I'm like so upset that that's the behavior that's being displayed.

[01:02:52] And that's why I would have said something dumb and made a threat, which is just me threatening because I want to change someone's behavior.

[01:03:01] So knowing that it would have come off the back of heat like that, I'm really glad, you know, I'm so glad that we can have some sort of a dialogue that's not just door slamming and come out of your room when you've learned how to behave or whatever.

[01:03:18] Totally.

[01:03:18] And you're role modeling this beautiful thing for him that I'm not perfect at this and I actually own it and I apologize.

[01:03:26] And people are often like, how do I get my kid to learn how to say sorry?

[01:03:29] How do I get and learn how to respect me?

[01:03:31] You know, it's often a question I get asked.

[01:03:33] We give it to them first.

[01:03:35] Do you know what I mean?

[01:03:35] They're little kids.

[01:03:36] They don't respect us or say sorry because we tell them to.

[01:03:40] We don't want that basic superficial level of learning.

[01:03:43] It doesn't mean anything.

[01:03:44] Exactly.

[01:03:45] We want them to feel it and to understand why and go.

[01:03:48] And with siblings, it's really important that we own the conflict as the parents and we don't let immature minds get caught up in it because it can really cause a lot of resentment and dysfunction.

[01:03:59] That lasts for the lifetime.

[01:04:00] And for those of us that have more than one child, those will be the longest relationships of our kids' lives.

[01:04:05] They'll outlast ours.

[01:04:07] Do you know what I mean?

[01:04:07] So it's really important that that is a sacred relationship.

[01:04:10] And the way you step back into that is really beautiful because you're showing them that you have ownership for it.

[01:04:16] And you talk about punishments as well.

[01:04:18] Punishments don't work.

[01:04:19] Consequences work.

[01:04:20] But it's only a consequence if you knew it was coming and you had the ability to make a decision based on that knowledge and still steered towards it.

[01:04:28] And for a little kid, we should take most of that responsibility as well.

[01:04:32] You know what?

[01:04:33] I set up this situation where both of you are exhausted.

[01:04:36] You know, you haven't had food or you haven't slept or whatever.

[01:04:38] I was stressed.

[01:04:40] I didn't realize there was going to be conflict over this.

[01:04:42] And I came in too late.

[01:04:43] Yeah.

[01:04:43] I came in too late.

[01:04:44] And then I came in and, you know, did a strategy that doesn't work.

[01:04:48] I threatened you, which we're all trying to do better at this.

[01:04:51] I tear gassed you.

[01:04:52] This is not the way to win the crowd over.

[01:04:56] But you do win them back because you show you're fallible and you go, but I'm trying to get better at this.

[01:05:02] And what a beautiful role model you are for those two kids that are going to come up and they've experienced that when lots of us haven't.

[01:05:08] We never heard our parents say sorry.

[01:05:10] We never heard them take the responsibility for something going wrong.

[01:05:12] And we never heard them say, I want us to do better at this.

[01:05:17] Help me figure that out.

[01:05:18] Yeah.

[01:05:19] Yeah.

[01:05:19] Man.

[01:05:21] Oh, Billy.

[01:05:22] Thank you so much, mate.

[01:05:24] I mean, I feel like that's actually a perfect place to end because it's what we often come back to.

[01:05:30] The thing I always take the most away from you is, I mean, it's so easy to say and it is like literally something,

[01:05:36] even if you practice it a hundred times a day, you could still do more.

[01:05:40] The thing I always take from you is just see the kid in front of you.

[01:05:45] And no one knows their kids better than us.

[01:05:48] Even if, and I think even if we feel like we don't, so much of the time I feel that where I go, I don't really understand why they're acting like this.

[01:05:56] But if I sat with it for a bit, what I mean is I just wish they weren't acting like this.

[01:06:01] Yeah.

[01:06:01] But I think they don't.

[01:06:02] I do know why they're acting like this.

[01:06:04] And it might be for, it might be a reality I'm not, I wasn't expecting or I didn't want, but it is what it is.

[01:06:11] The reality is there.

[01:06:12] And I think what I always learn from you is the more you embrace it, then the more beautiful this relationship gets with the kids.

[01:06:20] Yeah.

[01:06:20] So thank you, man.

[01:06:21] I can't, I mean, thank you on behalf of thousands of thousands of people that don't get to see you or thank you personally.

[01:06:27] But I know people love these wrap up episodes because there's just so much wisdom in it.

[01:06:33] And man, we're really grateful.

[01:06:35] Well, yeah, I think you and Tim are doing something really special.

[01:06:38] And I always feel privileged to be combined powers with people who are so good at communicating and understanding, you know, how to resonate with the community because it's getting harder and harder.

[01:06:48] And I don't need to see a lot of these kids individually.

[01:06:50] Like people sometimes say, oh, can I send my kids?

[01:06:52] I'm like, you know, if you've listened to me talk, that's the best of me.

[01:06:55] Like, okay, I've got a highlight reel.

[01:06:57] There's other clinicians out there that are phenomenal.

[01:06:59] Like GPs need to be way better supported because they are phenomenal and we kind of don't support them and all of that stuff.

[01:07:06] But see the GP, tap the teacher on the shoulder, see the maternal child health nurse if they're younger kids and find the people in your community that understand this stuff and reach out for like us doing more stuff with you.

[01:07:16] Because Guiding Growing Minds is all about this.

[01:07:18] It's how do we move away from, I love meeting kids in clinic, but I want to pull my hair out when I'll say something that we've said today two or three times in a day and they've waited two and a half years to hear it.

[01:07:28] And I go, isn't that crazy?

[01:07:30] Like we need to do better.

[01:07:32] And that's why I love the partnership with you and Tim about how do we do that better by getting it out there, getting the science out there in a way that they can actually use it and pick it up.

[01:07:39] Thanks, man.

[01:07:39] You're an amazing, you do an amazing job.

[01:07:41] I'll do a quick book plug.

[01:07:43] Having just read your book, Billy, 10 Things I Wish You Knew About Your Child's Mental Health, I've just read it and reread bits and have taken copious notes and chatted to my wife about it and had a real awakening of things that I guess to your point, Haim, it's allowed me to reflect on things we're doing that are creating the environment that we're blaming our kids for.

[01:08:04] Anyway, without going to specifics, it's presented in such a consumable way.

[01:08:09] Honestly, it's so easy to apply it to your own situation and it's written really plainly in a beautiful way that allowed me to access so much of the wisdom really quickly.

[01:08:18] So I think it's a great book.

[01:08:19] I agree.

[01:08:20] And that's just because I'm the blurb on the front cover.

[01:08:21] Well, you're the first person to read it outside of a publisher and Annalise, my amazing partner, having listened to me read it every chapter.

[01:08:28] But that means so much to me, Tim, because I admire you as a person and as a parent.

[01:08:32] And yeah, the book has been really interesting.

[01:08:35] And if anyone who's out there and interested, I always feel uncomfortable plugging something people have to pay for.

[01:08:39] I'm happy to plug the podcast because it's free.

[01:08:41] But I did the audio book and I was like, oh, no, this has been podcasting for years.

[01:08:46] And I kind of sobbed through parts of it because these are real kids, you know, and you've listened to the audio book.

[01:08:50] You're like, oh, my God, he's struggling telling a story.

[01:08:52] And they're kids I knew 20 years ago and they still sit with me.

[01:08:55] So it's this beautiful thing.

[01:08:56] I feel like my role is just to amplify everything I've learned from all these kids and professionals in the community so that we can actually get better at this.

[01:09:03] That's it, man.

[01:09:05] You know, you shouldn't feel worried about people having to pay for it because it's probably the best money anyone will ever spend.

[01:09:09] So thank you, man.

[01:09:10] And thank you for spending the time with us.

[01:09:12] Thanks, man.

[01:09:14] Hamish is glad that he talked to another dad.

[01:09:17] Now he's going to say some other stuff, but he will be by himself.

[01:09:21] Thank you so much, Dr. Billigabi.

[01:09:23] One absolute legend.

[01:09:24] And thank you to everyone that listened to season three of How Are The Dads Dead.

[01:09:28] From Tim and myself, you know, we kind of...

[01:09:33] Not...

[01:09:33] Well, I was going to say selfishly or guiltily.

[01:09:35] But we do kind of feel a bit selfish and guilty sometimes because we love doing this.

[01:09:39] We both are really passionate about doing this show and we just feel...

[01:09:42] We feel like we get the most out of getting to do this show by having these conversations

[01:09:47] and then by re-listening to them and by getting to produce the episodes.

[01:09:52] We're just really indebted, first and foremost, to the guests and the guys that come on and take time out of their day.

[01:09:59] I mean, I think people know this, but it's worth saying anyway.

[01:10:01] It's not like you get...

[01:10:02] You don't get paid to go on a podcast and usually the way guest podcasts work is someone's got something to promote

[01:10:08] and that has never happened with our show or very rarely has happened with our show.

[01:10:14] It really is us just often reaching out to people saying,

[01:10:16] Hey, we're doing this thing.

[01:10:18] There really is no benefit to you except would you like to share your experience of being a dad

[01:10:24] to help other dads, mums, uncles, aunties, people that are interested in making life better for a little person

[01:10:34] or a big person, a big kid in their life.

[01:10:37] And invariably the answer is yes.

[01:10:39] So just a huge thank you to the guests that come on this show for doing something in the pure spirit

[01:10:45] of being a good person and wanting to help other people.

[01:10:49] And then without wanting to suck up to my audience too much,

[01:10:53] I think the fact that you're listening to this just says you are someone that's taking the time out

[01:10:59] and caring and putting the effort in to trying to better the way you go about things.

[01:11:05] And, you know, sometimes I think listening to a podcast, it seems like a little thing,

[01:11:09] but the little things are the big things.

[01:11:11] And I really appreciate the fact that you guys turn up here and believe in the same stuff that we do

[01:11:17] because we're all here for the same reason.

[01:11:18] So thank you for listening.

[01:11:19] I hope you got a little bit out of it.

[01:11:22] I'd prefer if you got a lot out of it, but even if you just got something out of it,

[01:11:26] I think we can all agree that that's been worth it.

[01:11:29] So I don't know what we do from here, but we love doing this kind of thing.

[01:11:33] So please do stay subscribed, keep an eye out for further details in the How Are The Dads Dad world.

[01:11:41] See you next time.

[01:11:47] How Are The Dads Dad is produced by myself and my mate Tim Bartley.

[01:11:55] The theme song is thanks to the incredibly talented Tom Carty.

[01:12:00] You can find him drenched throughout the internet.

[01:12:03] We recorded this particular episode on the lands of the Guttigal people of the Euronation

[01:12:07] and we pay our respect to their culture of storytelling that has survived for thousands of years.

[01:12:12] If you want to say hi, head to our website, howarethedadsdad.com.

[01:12:16] But most of all, thank you for listening.

[01:12:18] Hamish is a dad who just spoke with a dad

[01:12:21] And it blew his tiny mind about what he learned

[01:12:24] So he'll keep on a dad's and force them to talk to him

[01:12:27] So he can find out

[01:12:30] How are the dad's dad?

[01:12:32] And before we go, of course, one final thanking to Hertz.

[01:12:38] Very generously supporting How Are The Dads Dad for the entire season this season.

[01:12:43] So wherever you're going and for whatever reason, let's go Hertz.

[01:12:48] As I always mention, that's them saying let's go.

[01:12:50] That's them and you.

[01:12:52] I won't come.

[01:12:53] I won't get in the way of whatever business or leisure or adventure you're going on.

[01:12:59] I firmly support it if you're using Hertz.

[01:13:03] I moderately support it if you're not, if there's no hire car involved.

[01:13:06] But if you can find a place to put a hire car in, you know, we'd obviously prefer you use Hertz.

[01:13:11] Thanks for listening, guys.